Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

I hardly think Churchill was ten a penny

Donald Trump's presidential campaign signaled Wednesday its strategy for combating allegations of sexual misconduct against the Republican nominee

How the hell is going to combat allegations that he admits are true?

Claig - yes, watching it here:

There is no point is there really, Trump could assault a woman on live tv, he could in fact murder someone and his fans would still say he was showing the establishment who is in charge. He is after all just speaking for the people. When he doesn't win, well it won't be his fault will it? It will be an establishment conspiracy. It must be quite reassuring in a way to think like this. Utter batshit conspiracy theories are much more thrilling the rather boring fact of a racist misogynistic man.

'Claig - yes, watching it here:'

Thanks fourmummy. That was was a bit tamed down as he was speaking in an afternoon gig to students. It is usually his night ones that are wild as tens of thousands queue up from the early hours to attend them and he gives the Establishment full throttle as the atmosphere builds.

Trump has tweeted that the Democratic Governor of Minneapolis has said that Obamacare is no longer affordable

"Gov. Dayton Declares Affordable Care Act ‘No Longer Affordable’"

minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/10/12/gov-dayton-affordable-care-act/

Birds There is one key thing to understand in all of this. Someone has posted up a link above to a documentary called 'The Money Changers' and it's a great film to watch. The key thing is that despite much mockery of Claig, there really is an 'elite' in all human societies. The elite can be defined as those decision makers who control taxes, security, and all the rest of it, but primarily, the money supply. Various theorists have analysed this - they were all essentially writing about the same thing. Marx, anthropologists, economists in 'The Money Changers'. The key concept here is that profits are made via taxation of the producers (the workers). The elites take a (variable) chunk, redistribute some back and life goes on. It all sounds very conspiratorial but this system is actually just a feature of all stratified societies (and all societies larger than about 50 people are stratified). Diamond (2005) has also written about this (abridged), "[...] All centrally governed, nonegalitarian societies function unabashedly as kleptocracies, transferring net wealth from commoners to the upper classes. The difference between a kleptocrat and a wise statesman, between a robber baron and a public benefactor, is merely one of degree: a matter of just how large a percentage of the tribute extracted from producers is retained by the elite, and how much the commoners like the public uses to which the redistributed tribute is put".

Once this is understood, then it becomes very easy to see Trump's appeal to ordinary people. With previous administrations (it doesn't matter which), not enough has been redistributed back (my list in an earlier post illustrates this). The American poster a few pages back (Want2beSuperman?) is a beautiful example of 'people husbandry' - sucking ordinary people dry in terms of how much is extracted from them. Trump might do the same - or he might not. Hillary definitely will. There's a chance of change with him. There's none with Hillary. It's all about how much people are squeezed and at which point they have enough.

Trump sexualising his one-year-old daughter!

There are no words!

It's beginning to look as if there is no other stick to beat him with and that the word has gone out that the conversation must be about this and not about domestic policy or the Middle East (and of course not Clinton's long history of scandals).

The key thing is that despite much mockery of Claig, there really is an 'elite' in all human societies.

No, the key thing is that it is ridiculous to suggest that Trump is anything other than a member of the elite.

It's beginning to look as if there is no other stick to beat him with and that the word has gone out that the conversation must be about this and not about domestic policy or the Middle East (and of course not Clinton's long history of scandals)

Oh, there have been many sticks to beat him with.
But people seem to think him saying he'll get rid oF ISIS in a week, and that he has a terrific plan, or just leave it all to Assad and Putin, are all good. When in fact, all are ridiculous.

Or lowering taxes for the rich.
Or building walls paid by foreign governments.
Or expelling/monitoring/preventing entry to members of one religion (he missed putting them in concentration camps).
Or calling illegal immigrants rapists and murderers.
Or insulting opponents and journalists.
His bankruptcies.
His not paying people.
His conning people.
His previous totally opposite views.

It's more like this is one in the long list of things to beat him with.
But one that seems the final drop. And one that nobody regardless of political views can accept or dismiss.

Particularly because he was the one who started accusing both Clintons of.
The one who actually took women to a press conference just before a debate.
He clearly missed the saying about glass walls.
And the one about those without sin throwing the first stone. Or it might just come back to hit you.

No, the key thing is that it is ridiculous to suggest that Trump is anything other than a member of the elite.

And has done or is actually proposing anything other than benefiting the elite.
No money to charity from his pockets.
Lowering taxes for the elites.
No protection for those who can't work.
Immigrants only useful to go in and be exploited temporarily by the rich elites. And then sent back packing to their origins.

This is a man who is against open markets and manufacturing abroad and makes his campaign merchandising in China!

Even the Chuffington Post knows it
That was a blog. Therefore opinion.

Havê any Trump fans looking into the dealings of his Foundation?

Particularly that story where it donated a large sum towards the attorney general in Florida, who them decided not to include the state in the suit against Trump University?
Nobody says Hillary is clean.
Trump, however is deep in shit.

Thanks for the explanation of capitalism. The real tragedy is that people think Trump will rescue the ordinary people for whom he is apparently ' a voice' . Trump couldn't care less for those people and in a similar way to the Farage effect, their lives will be worse off if god forbid he wins. But making the lives of the vulnerable even more difficult is really sticking it to the elite isn't it? I used to think the conspiracy theories were funny that much is true. But I have realised that all those conspiracy theories are a pseudo intellectual argument for supporting racism and now misogyny.

There's a chance of change with him.

No, there isn't. He is 70. He is not going to suddenly become somebody who can talk to heads of state or care about social and economic policy.

You might as well grab a random person off the street and make them president in the hope of change.

There is ample evidence to show that Trump likes the sound of his own voice, no evidence at all to show that he knows what he is talking about.

It's beginning to look as if there is no other stick to beat him with and that the word has gone out that the conversation must be about this and not about domestic policy or the Middle East (and of course not Clinton's long history of scandals)

The thing is... he cannot move on from it because although he might give a half hearted apology, it doesn't come from the heart, he is stupid, he doesn't sound like he really means it. Because he still carries on with the comments. That incenses women who have known him and more come forward with reports of his sleazy behaviour.

It's not about what Trump wants to do (although that is very hazy especially foreign policy), it's about the man himself.

I agree with birds, he doesn't care and all this sex/women sleaze stuff just shows him for the man he really is.

And Michelle who has always championed women has it right - a cracker of a speech which hopefully will see this disgusting man off. Shame for the GOP, he's decimating it, but he is the wrong candidate (understatement)

"No, the key thing is that it is ridiculous to suggest that Trump is anything other than a member of the elite."

Yes. And as he says himself, he uses his wealth and fame as a means to sexually assault women. And this is not the corrupt elite?

There are rumours that Trump is holding on because he has something (wikileaks-like) on HC that he'll release on the eve of the election. Something that will blow her out of the water.

Wishful thinking on behalf of the Trump supporters? The thing is, with HC it actually sounds like it could be true, and you couldn't say that about Obama, Bush jr, Bush Snr, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy etc etc in the weeks before they were due to get voted in for the first time. You wouldn't even have said it was credible about Bill Clinton who had various sex claims made against him at the time. But for HC it isn't unbelievable.

How did america end up with such woeful choices?

Birds It's not an explanation of capitalism. It's an explanation of all human economic systems whether communist, capitalist or whatever else. My explanation states that stratification in society is inevitable. Given this, there is an inevitably unequal distribution in decision making about who controls the money and how it gets redistributed. There may be a varying degree of redistribution from the people controlling the money to the people who produce that money but the fact of people husbandry is present in all societies. It is present in communist, socialist, capitalist, and every society. There is and can never be any other system (because once you get beyond a society of about 50 people comprising mainly of relatives, decision making can never be egalitarian. At least, it has never been observed to date).

He is 70. He is not going to suddenly become somebody who can talk to heads of state or care about social and economic policy.

I was not referring to a change in him personally. I was referring to social changes for Americans and beyond because he is saying the right things. Hillary is not even doing this. I've repeatedly stated that nobody knows what he will do, or what anybody will do in the future for that matter. Perhaps he can't articulate it but he has a sense of why a different redistribution is necessary. Hillary does not have this sense. This explains his support despite him.

I honestly dont get it

All those presidential candidates in years gone by and nothing to blow them out if the water and its only HC that is so heinous that its believable

And no proof of any of this, or not that i can find

Actually forget everything i have ever said

Fuck yeah i would vote for her...she sounds like a super villain

Perhaps he can't articulate it but he has a sense of why a different redistribution is necessary

No, he hasn't articulated that and you are projecting both the opinion and the ability to solve the problem onto him.

He has two big ideas: Borrow heavily from some schmuck and don't pay them back; Put on a show. Neither of these strategies will help anybody except Donald Trump.

All those presidential candidates in years gone by and nothing to blow them out if the water and its only HC that is so heinous that its believable

Is there any key difference you can identify between her and them? There's one I can spot.

She was married to a president when he was impeached and when he did the things that led to him being impeached and she's still married to him?

Don't say you think its because she is female, please! We women are not homogenous. We deserve to be treated as individuals and held accountable for our own choices.

nauticant

Seems fucking obvious to be me

She is really short, america does not like short people

Cross post jupiter