Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

Haven't the energy to argue with Trump apologists this morning, so I'm just going to leave a picture of his "doctor" here for some light relief and a reminder of that letter.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/bornstein-trump-linguistics/497840/

'That "Moment of Reckoning" vid is fantastic. He said that Trump was a bad speaker? He is fluid and articulate in this one'

Absolutely. His rally speeches are fantastic and very powerful when the crowd roars as well. Trump has no fear, he is taking them on. All the media are saying he will lose and stands no chance. If it turns out that he does win, then we will all definitely know that the system is rigged and they tried to stop him and failed.

Kaija: that's not mature debate.

Yes thanks WW I am aware of the difference but thanks for explaining it to me. He will never get to use those government advsors if he doesn't get elected. Therefore if you know you are utterly useless which seems to be your implication, why not have some advisors within your team to help you out. They wouldn't need to be much of a crack team to point out some of the flaws in his actions. So either he is incapable of appointing people to help him out or he doesn't listen to them. Neither are good.

'I'm just going to leave a picture of his "doctor" here for some light relief and a reminder of that letter.'

Everything about Trump is "light relief", that is the whole point, it is a laugh as the people stick it to the elite.

Andrew Neil was on the Sunday Politics and said that now all independents must be laughing at Trump after he said that Hillatry should be drug tested before the debate (which shows that Neil does not get it and usually he is good and not BBC like), but in reality they are laughing with Trump at the Establishment because they know the system is rigged and Trump has dared to say so.

Oh really, WinchesterWoman?

Actually I think it's fairly important to be reminded of what kind of candidate this is, and while the picture may be light relief, the implications of a letter like this being mocked up by a presidential candidate are pretty serious. If you don't like the picture, read the article.

'why not have some advisors within your team to help you out'

Because as Roger Stone says, who knows him and tries to advise him, no one can tell Trump what to do, ultimately he makes the decisions. Initially he listened to some of his "expert" politically correct advisers and fell for it and the Clinton team then hammered him. Now he has reverted to "Let Trump be Trump", the "shackles are off" and he is giving them hell again.

Trump knows what is going on in Syria and with Russia and with the neocons and the crooks who have as he says "bled America dry" with their economic and foreign policies. The advisers he listens to are the ones who agree with him on that. That is why the Establishment is petrified of Trump, because as Monica Crowley said in the video posted earlier "Trump is going to smash the existing order" and they know that if he wins "it is game over for them".

All of the "expert" pundit etc, BBC and all the rest are saying that Trump has blown it and Karl Rove, Bush's righthand man, says that Trump must get back to "policy" again and stop attacking Republican Establishment like Paul Ryan, the RINO, etc

But that is wrong because most people already know the issues, they know about Crooked Hillary, tey know about Benghazi, they know about the emails and they know that Trump is vulgar and crude and not clued up on all the policies. They have made their minds up and they want a fighter, a brawler, a battler who will smash the existing order, who will arrest the crooks and clean up the corruption, so attacking Paul Ryan and the Etablishment RINOs makes sense because it shows what Trump will do to the lot of them.

The Clinton campiagn will fail because they have gone into overkill mode (together with their supportive Establishment media) on the Trump racist, sexist meme and that has all been discounted by the voters who have now tuned off.

The third debate will be very important and the public doesn't want a politically correct Presidential Trump, they want a Trump with teh "shackles off" that defies the media, the Establishment, the great and the good, the crooks and the insiders because they want Washington cleaned up and to work for the people again instead of for the Brazilian bankers and elites and the "open border" free trade hemispherical backers of Crooked Hillary.

Hmmm, my computer doesn't seem to like the MN site, ATM.
Anyway, first of all, apologies for the rogue "u" in a previous post (and other typos).

Then, an update about what is currently happening in Syria and why talks and a peaceful solution are failing:
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/syria-talks-hosted-by-john-kerry-end-without-agreement-on-next-move

One of the sides is bombing hospitals and other civilian facilities, for some reason.

ISIS is being fought in several fronts, and there is only one side that is not concentrating on ISIS, really. Guess who? I have asked myself why and it's not an answer that I like. I hope I'm wrong.

Finally, Trump supporters can't have it both ways. He is either capable of understanding what is going on and deciding, or he needs advisors to decide for him.
At least W didn't muck up too much in his public speeches, even if others were deciding for him (if that was the case). Trump, OTOH, is clearly unrestrained in public. Whatever his advisors would say or implement is likely to be irredeemably undermined by his public behaviour.
He certainly is no statesman.

And quite frankly, claig, your attitude that it's fun and it's a finger to the establishment is rather sad when you think that international security and economic prosperity (to include the UK) is at stake. It's heartbreaking when I see people showing such lack of concern for what can happen for the sake of laughs or just changing for the sake of changing.

Trump went after the DOJ (Department of Justice) and the FBI yesterday. Trump said they had let the people down by not prosecuting Hillary etc. Trump is going after everyone on behalf of the people. The world has nevr seen anything like it, no "politician" would ever dare say what Trump is prepared to say and "world leaders" are panicking that Trump might make it and become President.

We are watching history in the making. No one has ever seen anything like it and world leaders can't believe what has happened to their world. And the people are laughing, at Trump's doctor, at his description that "no Presidential candidate ever has been as medically fit as Trump", at the "drug test" calls for Hillary by Trump before the debate, at his jokes that hshe is not "prepping" but back home "sleeping" and at everything else that Trump dares to say as he brings the crooks down.

"Trump Attacks FBI & DOJ For Corrupt Hillary Investigation - “It Was Crime At The Highest Level”

www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-13/trump-attacks-fbi-doj-corrupt-hillary-investigation-%E2%80%9Cit-was-crime-highest-level%E2%80%9D

And to be clear, I'd be happy to support a true voice, an honest voice, against the establishment and elites.

This is not it.

"And quite frankly, claig, your attitude that it's fun and it's a finger to the establishment is rather sad when you think that international security and economic prosperity (to include the UK) is at stake. It's heartbreaking when I see people showing such lack of concern for what can happen for the sake of laughs or just changing for the sake of changing."

Yes, this.

'He is either capable of understanding what is going on and deciding, or he needs advisors to decide for him. '

It is both. He has already decided to take the Establishment on and end their game, but he has advisers who feed info to him that he then decides if he agrees with.

'Trump, OTOH, is clearly unrestrained in public. '

Absolutely. Trump is completely fearless. Teh Establishment and world leaders have never ever come across anyone like him, he is not a "bought and paid for" politician and they can't control him. He is "unrestrained", he said "the shackles are off" and he is coming for the crooks and they know it and are panicking.

'your attitude that it's fun and it's a finger to the establishment is rather sad when you think that international security and economic prosperity (to include the UK) is at stake'

No because Trump will sort the crooks out, he will prosecute them, he has said so in public to their faces and he will smash Isis within weeks if not less and he will bring peace and make America great again and make it work for the American people. He is going to smash the globalists and end their game. He already told them

"We will no longer surrender our country or its people to the false song of gloablism"

They are desperate, he will beat them.

Marybeth Glenn describes herself as a Coolidge Conservative who is addicted to politics, Christian apologetics, C.S. Lewis, Ray Bradbury, Ravi Zacharias, and Phil Collins. She typically votes Republican, “rejects increasing government control, and will gladly rebuke either side of the aisle when they become power hungry.”

Presently, she is among the women all over America who’ve fled Donald Trump’s campaign:

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/the-tweet-storm-that-should-terrify-the-republican-party/503771/

'And to be clear, I'd be happy to support a true voice, an honest voice, against the establishment and elites.

This is not it.'

Only Trump is capable of doing it because despite all his many flaws, he is totally fearless. He is taking the crooks down.

my 'tactics' what like trying to actually have a debate about something real

Just for the record, WW, you are of course aware that I was talking about your repeated hectoring of other posters to say whether they reported a post - which self-evidently isn't an attempt to have a debate at all.

I also think (and I know you will disagree with this, but it lays clear my position) that Trump will be surrounded by people who are of experience and knowledge that will take a different direction

The trouble is that, for anyone to have faith in this, he needs to demonstrate a track record of listening to and acting on advice. As claig herself says, he doesn't feel he has to.

he will smash Isis within weeks if not less and he will bring peace and make America great again and make it work for the American people. He is going to smash the globalists and end their game. He already told them

But he's never told anyone how he plans to accomplish this. That's the problem. Anyone can stand up and claim they will bring peace, prosperity and a land flowing with milk and honey: if they want us to believe them, they have to produce something resembling credible plans.

The Big Lie again, Claig.

" if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

I really resent spending so much of my time on these threads, but what you are doing is so damaging that it can't be ignored.

Even if Trump took the "crooks" down, what would he be replacing them with?

He IS a crook to start with. Of the same calibre, if not worse, than any crooks he'd be replacing. Not only a crook, but a mysoginistic, racist, ignorant, thuggish, unthinking, selfish, vain crook.

I'm with Clinton in not finding anything that I could possibly admire about him.

Just look at this now. Pathetic.
"Clinton may have taken performance-enhancing drugs before debate – Trump"
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/donald-trump-drug-testing-new-hampshire-rally

Lweji thanks for your posts on Syria. Re your comment: Trump supporters can't have it both ways. I myself would ask Claig how, if Trump is 'not clued up on policies' is he going to move ahead on a foreign policy issue like Syria. Obviously he will take advice and listen to positions.

Also Lewji from my own point of view: there is a different between PR advice for a campaign and White House advice on government action. Not taking PR advice may or may not be good (Claig thinks it is good, I don't have an opinion). Not taking White House advice is a very different thing. I think he would. Does that clarify for the purposes of 'not having it both ways'.

ZuleikaDobson, he does listen to advice but ultimately he will be making the decisions. No one controls him, as Roger Stone says "he cn't be bullied, he can't be bought".

As a billionaire, there is nothing he needs from them. They are richer than him, but he doesn't need Clinton Foundations and donations from foreign potentates and despots and bankers. He already has all the money he needs, he is now going to sort the crooked corrupt cronies out for the sake of the people and he is going to prosecute them and clean up the system.

If trump wins he is not going to do one tenth of what you think he is going to do claig

He is a blustering fool, all mouth and trousers, all fur coat and no knickers, all wind and fury signifying nothing

I like you claig on mumsnet, i honestly do. I think you have a good sense of humour, a way with words and if you could just shorten your posts and not link quite so much your threads would be very interesting

But you are so wrong about trump...i do worry that he will get in, but part of that is feeling very sorry for anyone who believes he will change anything in a positive way

Because he wont

I was asking, Zuleika, not hectoring. But you keep talking about it if you like. I mean you obviously prefer talking about that than anything else.,