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Politics

McDonnell's Speech - Barnstormer. Panic in the usual circles

156 replies

claig · 28/09/2015 12:56

Stunning speech by John McDonnell.

Elite in panic, 1% ers at a loss of what to do.
BBC probably instructed to try and stop the people.
Crisis meetings in gentlemens' clubs.
Directors, Director Generals, Lieutenants, Sergeants, Lords, Ladies, Barons and Baronesses in meltdown.

Teenage whizzkids at Oxbridge wooed with whopping wonga to staff think tanks whose aim is to stop the people.

All luvvies' leave cancelled, metropolitans told they have a mountain to climb to stop the people.

McDonnell, gamechanger? You betcha.

Elite already practising their pitch, sharpoening up their spin, calling all their luvvies in a last ditch attempt to stop the people. They'll be on TV tonight, the Tory-lites trying to do what the elite think is right, to stop the people with all their might.

Can the people win? Can they see through the luvvies' spin? Will they put the luvvies in the bin?

Jez they can!

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caroldecker · 29/09/2015 19:27

Claig regardless of the bollocks you spout, Trump does not have a hope of winning the republican nomination, let alone the presidency.

claig · 29/09/2015 20:09

'Claig regardless of the bollocks you spout'

If you can identify one piece of bollocks, I will eat my hat.

Why do you think Trump won't win the nomination when the people are behind him and the elite are against him? You are in danger of falling into the Establishment trap of Blair, Kinnock, Chuka and Gordon Bennett who thought that Corbyn would never be leader of their modernised New Labour Party, but New Labour is now dead and buried and Old Labour is back because the people are back.

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claig · 29/09/2015 20:19

If Trump wins the nomination, if the Republican elite are powerless to stop him because good decent Conservative American voters refuse to vote for Establishment candidates like Jeb Bush and what Trump calls the "puppets" (in the same way that good decent Labour voters here refused to vote for Cooper, Kendall and Burnham against the advice of the likes of Gordon Bennett) then I have no doubt at all that he will become President and defeat all the politically correct Clintons or even Bidens, if he stands.

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claig · 29/09/2015 20:28

The elite are doing everything they can to stop Trump. They are petrified of teh prospect of him being President. They know their global warming game is over, and just watch the puppets in Europe when Trump takes charge. The people will have the best laugh ever.

"Media thumps Trump, but polls show he's winning big"
...
“You put up the CNN poll, you didn’t put up NBC poll and you’re the ones that are paying for the NBC poll,” he told Guthrie. “So I don’t get it, other than that the NBC poll is a very good poll for Trump.”

Trump’s campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, underlined the point in a phone interview with The Hill.

Complaining about “dishonesty in the mainstream media,” Lewandowski noted that, while the results of any individual poll are open to debate, “there has been a clear consistency that indicates Mr. Trump is the definitive front-runner for the Republican nomination.”

As of late Friday, the RealClearPolitics (RCP) average had Trump leading the GOP field by 7.7 points nationally; by exactly 6 points in Iowa; by 15.6 points in New Hampshire, and by 15.3 points in South Carolina.

“If his name wasn’t Trump, the pundits would be saying this race is over,” Lewandowski said. “If the name was Bush — and Jeb is in about sixth place, by the way — and he was getting 28 and 32 percent, it would be all over.”

thehill.com/homenews/campaign/255032-media-thumps-trump-but-polls-show-hes-winning-big

Go The Donald! Go the people!

We are witnessing a worldwide revolution of the people against the elites - here with Corbyn and Farage and in the States with The Donald. They can't stop it. They rolled Gordon Bennett out here when things looked desperate (and they had to be very desperate to use Bennett) but he fell flat on his face.

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claig · 29/09/2015 20:47

"'President Trump' May Not Be So Far-Fetched - And the Polls Scare the Establishment to Death"

nation.foxnews.com/2015/07/11/president-trump-may-not-be-so-far-fetched-and-polls-scare-establishment-death

Am I bovvered? This is fantastic.

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Grazia1984 · 29/09/2015 20:48

Claig, the Tories have not been a stronger position for decades. Corbyn is a God send for the Tories. We are in for 10 more years of Tory rule which will be a very good thing for Britain.

claig · 29/09/2015 21:08

'Claig, the Tories have not been a stronger position for decades. '

Not many people actually like the Tories. Look at how they lost Rochester to UKIP, one of their safest seats. People have no enthusiasm for the Tories, they just preferrred them to Labour because they are "all the same".

But now Labour are no longer "the same", there is a real alternative and unlike UKIP this alternative won't just win in one bye-election but is capable of winning nationally. People will abandon the Tories, just like they did in their safe seats of Clacton and Rochester when they turned to unknown, untested UKIP who had the entire media and Establishment against them. But this time they will turn to Labour.

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caroldecker · 29/09/2015 23:58

claig Rochester has a tory mp. In the US, the republicans are like the Tories, not Labour. See how quickly IDS was removed as party leader when the members voted him in. Trump will not be allowed to be the GOP candidate.

Alyosha · 30/09/2015 09:40

Because Trump is not politically correct, he is fearless, he breaks the rules the Establishment pundits set and everyone knows he means business. They would be stupid not to respect Trump, and although they are spinners and liars, they aren't stupid. That is why the Establishment is in panic over Trump's runaway success. They know if he gets in, then the global warming con is over.

They don't respect him. You forget that all republican nominees in recent years have denied the reality of global warming, so their friends in the Oil industry continue to fund their Super PACs.

Then why did they let Russian aid in?

Russian aid includes such useful things as tanks, bombs and Russian soldiers.

The Ukrainian government has stopped their pension payments and bomb civilians. Without Russian aid the place would collapse.

Yes, Ukraine shouldn't have done that. Without Russian aid Donetsk would be the peaceful place it was before the Russian invasion, a lovely city with a great manufacturing base. Note there was no separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine, which if there had been a genuine desire to become Russian (which there wasn't, because I lived there) would have existed.

Because Trump will run the government and will have the resources of the US government and will be able to decide priorities and carry out tax crackdown policies. He is not in the elite's pocket. He is not a normal politician. He is not part of the political class. That is why he is so popular with Conservative voters.

So he's going to go after himself?

claig · 30/09/2015 09:55

"You forget that all republican nominees in recent years have denied the reality of global warming"

No, they are all Establishment, they all do as they are told. They are just like the modernisers in the Tory Party, Cameron et al. They all believe in man-made global warming, they all waste public taxpayer money on it because they have to do so. Some pretend they are with the people in some of their speeches, but the American Conservatives (good people, decent people) know they are Establishment liars and don't trust any of the Establishment candidates which is why they vote Trump and not Jeb and the Establishment team. No one believes the Establishment politicians are on their side in the US or here, which explains Farage's success and now amazingly even among Labour voters, Corbyn's success.

"Jeb Bush Now Says Humans Contribute To Climate Change"

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeb-bush-climate-change_55ba4fcde4b095423d0e13e1

Of course Jeb Bush says that, he isn't allowed to do anything different and the American people know it.

'Russian aid includes such useful things as tanks, bombs and Russian soldiers.'

So says Fox News.

'Yes, Ukraine shouldn't have done that. Without Russian aid Donetsk would be the peaceful place it was before the Russian invasion'

There is no Russian invasion and the Ukrainian government has punished its own people and left them in destitution by cutting their legally entitled and long contributed to pensions from vulnerable people. They and the Right Sector Ukrainian nationalists from the Westen Galicia region near Poland want to punish the Russian speaking Ukrainians in teh richest part of Ukriane with the most industrialised base in order to break their will and force them to succumb.

'Note there was no separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine, which if there had been a genuine desire to become Russian (which there wasn't, because I lived there) would have existed.'

They don't autonomy not union with Russia and that is what Putin wants too. The Ukrainian nationalists want to break their will and force them to drop their wishe for greater autonomy within Ukraine.

'So he's going to go after himself?'

No Trump will go after Wall Street and the hedge funds and restore prsoperity and jobs for ordinary American people which is why good, decenet American Conservatives are voting for him in droves and why the Establishment is scared to death.

"'President Trump' May Not Be So Far-Fetched - And the Polls Scare the Establishment to Death"

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claig · 30/09/2015 10:26

"Fox's GOP debate was watched by 24 million viewers on Thursday night, according to Nielsen data, making it the highest-rated primary debate in television history.

The event, featuring Donald Trump in his first debate, was also the highest-rated telecast in the nearly 20 year history of the Fox News Channel, a spokeswoman said.

Rival executives and campaign aides also predicted unusually high ratings for the event, thanks to curiosity about Trump and the controversy over the "top ten" candidate criteria.

But the ratings shattered even the rosiest expectations for the beginning of debate season. Television executives were stunned."

money.cnn.com/2015/08/07/media/gop-debate-fox-news-ratings/

Trump is a phenomenon for a simple reason, he is with the people and not the Establishment. If the Establishment fail in their attempt to stop win becoming the Republican candidate, then I predict he will absolutely thrash politically correct Establishment Clinton.

American people are not fooled by modernisers and the media as many people here are, and they will vote in droves for the non-politically correct , truth telling, people's candidate against each and every one of the Establishment's candidates.

And when Trump wins, watch what hapens in Europe to the modernisers, they will all suck up to Trump and pretend they never believed in man-made climate change, they will outdo themselves in sucking up the people's President. The entire Establishment game will be over and it will be a victory for the American people and the people on the entire planet as the elite are defeated.

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Alyosha · 30/09/2015 10:59

No, they are all Establishment, they all do as they are told. They are just like the modernisers in the Tory Party, Cameron et al. They all believe in man-made global warming, they all waste public taxpayer money on it because they have to do so. Some pretend they are with the people in some of their speeches, but the American Conservatives (good people, decent people) know they are Establishment liars and don't trust any of the Establishment candidates which is why they vote Trump and not Jeb and the Establishment team. No one believes the Establishment politicians are on their side in the US or here, which explains Farage's success and now amazingly even among Labour voters, Corbyn's success.

They are not like the Tories, they are far far to the right of the Tories. And the majority of candidates and republican representative deny the reality of climate change, because they think it's a liberal plot. Just like you!

So says Fox News.

So says everyone. Feast your eyes on some budget Russian military equipment here: dailysignal.com/2015/03/06/ukraine-showcases-captured-russian-military-hardware/

There is no Russian invasion and the Ukrainian government has punished its own people and left them in destitution by cutting their legally entitled and long contributed to pensions from vulnerable people. They and the Right Sector Ukrainian nationalists from the Westen Galicia region near Poland want to punish the Russian speaking Ukrainians in teh richest part of Ukriane with the most industrialised base in order to break their will and force them to succumb.

Honestly claig, I thought you knew what was going on! Of course there's a Russian invasion - the moment the Ukrainian army was about to win against the Russian insurgents, the Russian govt. sent in the troops. Or how else do you explain Russian mothers' dead children being buried in secret ceremonies? www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

Having lived in Donetsk, I can tell you the situation is more nuanced than you think. Russian speakers were peeved to not have Russian taught in schools & to have to write in Ukrainian, and the Ukrainian govt. was too heavy handed - they wanted to reverse years of Russian supression of Ukrainian and form a new national consciousness. However to say that the Russian speakers were oppressed is just bullshit. Most people I knew were happy that their children were bilingual, and the common refrain was "well, we're are Ukrainian, so I suppose it's OK that we speak Ukrainain", although personally having Russian as a 2nd language would have been the tolerant & right thing to do.

They don't autonomy not union with Russia and that is what Putin wants too. The Ukrainian nationalists want to break their will and force them to drop their wishe for greater autonomy within Ukraine.

Well you're right that that's what Putin wants, but no one in Donetsk really wants that - if there had been a desire for that why didn't it come about after the orange revolution? Yanukovich and some of his rich pals threatened to form a breakaway state then but it was quashed as no civilians actually wanted it. The only region of Ukraine that really wanted autonomous status was Crimea!

No Trump will go after Wall Street and the hedge funds and restore prsoperity and jobs for ordinary American people which is why good, decenet American Conservatives are voting for him in droves and why the Establishment is scared to death.

One rule for us, one rule for Trump! You can't have good quality services without raising taxes on almost everyone sadly. It takes a lot of time and effort to play the whack-a-mole game that is closing tax loopholes. I know you think it's dead easy though.

claig · 30/09/2015 11:31

' they think it's a liberal plot. Just like you'

They only say that to placate the people - the good, dedent American Conservative people. The American people understand that they are all Establishment and all do exactly as they are told, which is why they have given the Establishment team a wide berth and jumped on the people's bandwagon with the people's candidate for President - The Donald.

'Feast your eyes on some budget Russian military equipment here'

No serious observer of foreign affairs believes what Yats or the ROght Sector says or their youtube videos etc.

'Honestly claig, I thought you knew what was going on!'

And you thought right. If there was a Russian invasion, don't you think that the Spetsnaz and Russian military could easily beat the Ukrainian conscript army and the far right nationalist oligarch funded Azov battalions etc? Putin said he could be in Kiev in two weeks and of course he could if he wanted to but he doesn't want an escalation, he wants negotiation on autonomy. The strategy is to trap Putin and suck him in to invading Ukraine in an attempt to beat the war drums and escalate it into a European wide war, but Putin has outwitted the plan and has not fallen for it, thereby saving Europe from a catastrophic war which some billionaires want to happen.

'Russian speakers were peeved to not have Russian taught in schools & to have to write in Ukrainian, and the Ukrainian govt. was too heavy handed'

But this is not what it is all about, this is a minor issue. The plan is to strip the industrial heartland of Ukraine, the Donbas, of its industry, its mines and its jobs, to weaken Ukraine and make it dependent on EU industry takeover and to destroy business relations with Russia. It is an attempt to destroy the independence and sustainability of the most prosperous region of Ukraine - the Donbas - so that it can be stripped and plundered for billionaire interests. That is why the Russian speaking people there want autonomy and a federation so that they can remain in charge of their own affairs. They don't want independence from Ukraine, they want greater self-determination and autonomy within Ukraine which has had its elected government toppled by a coup and has seen some of its former politicians and officials from the Donbas region murdered by right wing nationalists in teh pay of oligarchs who are vying for control of the country as it falls apart.

'no one in Donetsk really wants that - if there had been a desire for that why didn't it come about after the orange revolution? '

Because there was no need for it as the elected government, while unpopular and dominated by oligarch interests, still reflected the interests of the people. Yanukovych's party had majority support in the Russian speaking regions which is why the nationalist Galicia region (near Poland) activists toppled his democratically elected Presidency and instigated a coup in a bid to eliminate his party, murder some of his remaining politicians and officials and intimidate the Russian speaking people in the richest part of Ukraine. They were backed by the EU but just as in Syria where the Jihadis have been backed by funders against the elected government, the EU miscalculated and thought that the Russian speaking people would be a pushover and that the far right Neo Nazi Azov battalions who murdered trade unionists in Odessa by setting the building on fire and beating people to death as they jumped out of windows to save themselves would defeat the Russian speaking people. But the Russian separatists have defeated the Ukraininan government repeatedly and when they trapped 5000 soldiers in the Debaltsevo pocket, among them foreign mercanaries, Merkel had to rush to Moscow to meet Putin in order to try and save the 5000, whom the Russian speaking separatists then released and let go. The desire for more autonomy among the Russian speaking people only came to the fore when they witnessed the undemocratic coup instigated by the Neo Nazi battalions and witnessed how elected politicians wer intimidated , thrown into bins outside parliament and some even murdered.

'You can't have good quality services without raising taxes on almost everyone sadly. '

Of course you can and Trump will do it. He has promised zero tax for an extra 31 million Americans, slashed taxes for the middle class and stinging taxes for Wall Street and the hedge funds together with extra growth and jobs provided by economic stimulus and trade deals that begin to unravel the elite's free trade deals that have shipped American jobs over the border to Mexico or China for the benefit of corporations and not the American people.

'I know you think it's dead easy though.'

Of course it is dead easy if Establishment stooges are not in power and Trump will see to it that they aren't.

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Alyosha · 30/09/2015 11:57

They only say that to placate the people - the good, dedent American Conservative people. The American people understand that they are all Establishment and all do exactly as they are told, which is why they have given the Establishment team a wide berth and jumped on the people's bandwagon with the people's candidate for President - The Donald.

So why does the establishment support action against climate change but also climate change denial?

No serious observer of foreign affairs believes what Yats or the ROght Sector says or their youtube videos etc.

? No serious person believes RT or Putin either, but there you are.

And you thought right. If there was a Russian invasion, don't you think that the Spetsnaz and Russian military could easily beat the Ukrainian conscript army and the far right nationalist oligarch funded Azov battalions etc? Putin said he could be in Kiev in two weeks and of course he could if he wanted to but he doesn't want an escalation, he wants negotiation on autonomy. The strategy is to trap Putin and suck him in to invading Ukraine in an attempt to beat the war drums and escalate it into a European wide war, but Putin has outwitted the plan and has not fallen for it, thereby saving Europe from a catastrophic war which some billionaires want to happen.

Well yes - but as you correctly pointed out, Putin doesn't want Eastern Ukraine to become a part of Russia, he wants it to be a permanently destabilised region reliant on Russian aid in perpetuity to have control over Ukraine. He has injected just enough troops to make that happen. Billionaires shouldn't want a war, it destroys their wealth.

But this is not what it is all about, this is a minor issue. The plan is to strip the industrial heartland of Ukraine, the Donbas, of its industry, its mines and its jobs, to weaken Ukraine and make it dependent on EU industry takeover and to destroy business relations with Russia. It is an attempt to destroy the independence and sustainability of the most prosperous region of Ukraine - the Donbas - so that it can be stripped and plundered for billionaire interests. That is why the Russian speaking people there want autonomy and a federation so that they can remain in charge of their own affairs. They don't want independence from Ukraine, they want greater self-determination and autonomy within Ukraine which has had its elected government toppled by a coup and has seen some of its former politicians and officials from the Donbas region murdered by right wing nationalists in teh pay of oligarchs who are vying for control of the country as it falls apart.

Lol. They don't want autonomy and their own federation. There is no genuine grassroots movement for autonomy and there never has been. And you're mad - the Ukraininan government needs Donetsk's hard money and the EU would develop Ukrainian industry to world class standards - quality of life across Eastern Europe has increased hugely in countries that joined the EU, as Donetsk natives know well, as they often travel to the Czech Republic & Poland on holiday and envy the lifestyle there.

Because there was no need for it as the elected government, while unpopular and dominated by oligarch interests, still reflected the interests of the people. Yanukovych's party had majority support in the Russian speaking regions which is why the nationalist Galicia region (near Poland) activists toppled his democratically elected Presidency and instigated a coup in a bid to eliminate his party, murder some of his remaining politicians and officials and intimidate the Russian speaking people in the richest part of Ukraine. They were backed by the EU but just as in Syria where the Jihadis have been backed by funders against the elected government, the EU miscalculated and thought that the Russian speaking people would be a pushover and that the far right Neo Nazi Azov battalions who murdered trade unionists in Odessa by setting the building on fire and beating people to death as they jumped out of windows to save themselves would defeat the Russian speaking people. But the Russian separatists have defeated the Ukraininan government repeatedly and when they trapped 5000 soldiers in the Debaltsevo pocket, among them foreign mercanaries, Merkel had to rush to Moscow to meet Putin in order to try and save the 5000, whom the Russian speaking separatists then released and let go. The desire for more autonomy among the Russian speaking people only came to the fore when they witnessed the undemocratic coup instigated by the Neo Nazi battalions and witnessed how elected politicians wer intimidated , thrown into bins outside parliament and some even murdered.

Again, you're wrong. Yanukovich was popular in Donetsk in the 2009 elections. But by 2012 his true colours were obvious, and he had lost even this traditional support base! He was elected democratically but his brazenly corrupt regime lost him support in the Ast as well as the west. Neo nazi Russian battalions are the real issue here - you have Serbian nationalist racists fightint for Russia and the Tatar population in Crimea is facing huge discrimination from racist Russians. Not to say there aren't some Ukrainian neo-nazis, but the Russians are by far the worst offenders. And it was not Trade Union officials who were the main victims - it was pro-Russian thugs taking refuge from pro-Ukrainian thugs, not that that makes it any better. And what about this huge pro-Ukrainian rally in Donetsk? Or are they all paid actors?

And if all of Eastern Ukraine wants autonomy, why is Kharkov not joining in? Could it be because the Russians don't want to overextend themselves?

Of course you can and Trump will do it. He has promised zero tax for an extra 31 million Americans, slashed taxes for the middle class and stinging taxes for Wall Street and the hedge funds together with extra growth and jobs provided by economic stimulus and trade deals that begin to unravel the elite's free trade deals that have shipped American jobs over the border to Mexico or China for the benefit of corporations and not the American people.

Well you can promise all you want, but cutting taxes on most people leads to lower revenue, and it will be hard to find the extra money from corporations intent on hiding it. I wouldn't wish for an isolationist USA if I were you - how we will sell anything to theM??

claig · 30/09/2015 12:28

'So why does the establishment support action against climate change but also climate change denial?'

It doesn't. The Establishment is the main instigator of the climate change hoax. It is they who siphon public taxpayer money to climate charidees and pressure groups and the like and push the climate con on TV. It was Labour's Gordon Bennett who said "we have fifty days left to save the planet".

Puppets do as they are told by the Establishment. Trump is no puppet which is why

"'President Trump' May Not Be So Far-Fetched - And the Polls Scare the Establishment to Death"

"Putin doesn't want Eastern Ukraine to become a part of Russia, he wants it to be a permanently destabilised region reliant on Russian aid in perpetuity to have control over Ukraine."

Of course he doesn't. You must stop believing what Fox News and the warmongers say. What country wants a destablised basket case region on its doorstep, with the need to accommodate millions of refugees and the need to pump endless money in in order to prevent total collapse.? Why would Russia want the Ukrainian couop government to evade its responsibilities in paying pensions to its own citizens so that Russian people in Russia have to have increased taxes to pay to save people from starving to death in Ukraine?

'Billionaires shouldn't want a war, it destroys their wealth.'

Why do you think wars are started. Why do you think Saudi billionaires and Qatari billionaires have funded beheading, butchering mercenary Jihadis for five years in an attempt to topple the government of Syria if not for an increase in their wealth as they take the spoils of Syria, run an oil pipeline through it and eliminate all opposition to their pecuniary plans?
Wars are started by rich, immoral, uncaring, unfeeling people who are responsible for the suffering of millions of ordinary people whose lives they wreck in their atavistic goal for more money and more power.

'you have Serbian nationalist racists fightint for Russia'

Do they fly Nazi swastika flags and the Wolfsangel like the Ukrainian nationalists do? Of course not. They are Slav nationalists who are fighting with fellow Slav Russian volunteers against an EU backed openly Nazi Ukrainian Right Sector who are inheritors of Stefan Bandera who committed atrocities against Poles and Jews with the Nazis in and after World War II.

'And it was not Trade Union officials who were the main victims - it was pro-Russian thugs taking refuge from pro-Ukrainian thugs, not that that makes it any better.'

You should be ashamed of yourself when innocent trade unionists died and women were beaten to death as they jumped from windows as Neo Nazis with swastikas beat and burned and shot people to death in the pay of oligarchs.

'And what about this huge pro-Ukrainian rally in Donetsk? Or are they all paid actors? '

No they aren't actors. It is a civil war and people are on different sides. Children of five are on no side because they don't understand what it is about but the separatist fighters are fighting the Ukrainian government for autonomy and have defeated the Ukrainians repeatedly who have asked for more money from the EU to prop up their failing regime and to arm and train their military as they try to take on the separatists.

'And if all of Eastern Ukraine wants autonomy, why is Kharkov not joining in? Could it be because the Russians don't want to overextend themselves?'

They don't all want autonomy. It has nothing to do with the Russians. The Russian speaking separatists have taken up arms and have beaten the Azov battalions repeatedly and if Putin did not stop them repeatedly under the pleas of Merkel and Hollande then they would take Mariupol and many other regions too. Most people don't want to fight in any region. It is just a small hardcore of separatists and Azov battalions and forced conscripts.

'Well you can promise all you want, but cutting taxes on most people leads to lower revenue'

No it doesn't because people sepend the money in their pockets which causes business growth rather than handing that money over to the likes of Gordon Bennett who then proceeds to spend it on the Millenium Dome or wind farms or whatever folly a teenage adviser comes up with next.

'it will be hard to find the extra money from corporations intent on hiding it'

Not if the government is not full of Esatblishment stooges.

'I wouldn't wish for an isolationist USA if I were you - how we will sell anything to theM??'

It's about the American people and not ripping them off and the British people and not ripping them off. American jobs will return, Americans will have increased wealth and more disposable income since they won't have to hand it over to the Gordon Bennetts and they will buy more foreign wine and foreign cheese and foreign pharmaceuticals etc. We will use our own steel from Redcar to build our own building in the City of London instead of importing steel froo Korea and this will employ our own people who will spend their money instead of handing it over to the Gordon Bennetts. World prosperity will increase, people will have more money in their pockets and the Gordon Bennetts will have less money to waste on millenium domes and wind farms. It will be a victory for the American people, the British people and the people on the planet and it will be a defeat for the Gordon Bennetts.

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Alyosha · 30/09/2015 13:40

It doesn't. The Establishment is the main instigator of the climate change hoax. It is they who siphon public taxpayer money to climate charidees and pressure groups and the like and push the climate con on TV. It was Labour's Gordon Bennett who said "we have fifty days left to save the planet".

So why do all Republicans repudiate climate change - I thought they were all establishment? Are they not establishment now?

Of course he doesn't. You must stop believing what Fox News and the warmongers say. What country wants a destablised basket case region on its doorstep, with the need to accommodate millions of refugees and the need to pump endless money in in order to prevent total collapse.? Why would Russia want the Ukrainian couop government to evade its responsibilities in paying pensions to its own citizens so that Russian people in Russia have to have increased taxes to pay to save people from starving to death in Ukraine?

No, I believe my friends who used to live in Donetsk but now live in Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev & Volgograd.

I thought you understood what was going on? Isn't it obvious? I mean why has Russia fought so hard to keep Chechnya? Why did they fight so hard to keep unwilling Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia? Putin relies hugely on nationalist right wing Russian national pride to prop up his regime. These people can't take the idea that Ukraine, a country they perceive as being really a part of Russia, should join the EU and illustrate once and for all how bankrupt the Russian political and social system is.

In addition they don't want Donetsk to fully join with Russia as they need to have some influence over Kiev - if Eastern Ukraine leaves, the remaining part of Ukraine will be overwhelmingly pro-NATO.

Why do you think wars are started. Why do you think Saudi billionaires and Qatari billionaires have funded beheading, butchering mercenary Jihadis for five years in an attempt to topple the government of Syria if not for an increase in their wealth as they take the spoils of Syria, run an oil pipeline through it and eliminate all opposition to their pecuniary plans?
Wars are started by rich, immoral, uncaring, unfeeling people who are responsible for the suffering of millions of ordinary people whose lives they wreck in their atavistic goal for more money and more power.

For the same reason billionaire Putin has funded a civil war in Ukraine. Power. But they are funding arms distance wars which could turn into close wars - a dangerous strategy. In the long term it doesn't bring you money - WW1 and WW2 destroyed wealth across Europe.

Do they fly Nazi swastika flags and the Wolfsangel like the Ukrainian nationalists do? Of course not. They are Slav nationalists who are fighting with fellow Slav Russian volunteers against an EU backed openly Nazi Ukrainian Right Sector who are inheritors of Stefan Bandera who committed atrocities against Poles and Jews with the Nazis in and after World War II.

I think it's amusing you don't think Ukrainian civilians across Ukraine in the 2nd world war didn't participate in anti-Jew atrocities with great abandon and no sign of unwillingness. And the chief Rabbi in Kiev is quite clear he has no problem: www.jewishpress.com/indepth/interviews-and-profiles/putin-is-scared-of-an-uprising-an-interview-with-ukraines-chief-rabbi-rav-yaakov-dov-bleich/2015/04/08/

Let's look at the nasty Russian nationalists: www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ukraine-war-from-perspective-of-russian-nationalists-a-1023801.html

Or maybe this guy: balkanist.net/right-world/

"In Russia, the line between the state and far-right organizations can get even murkier. In fact, blurring those distinctions has actually been part of a state policy that people in wonky circles refer to as “managed nationalism”. Basically, the Russian government’s appeases far-right organizations by recruiting them to work for the Kremlin. Those pictures you’ve seen lately of neo-Nazis bashing gay kids in Moscow? More likely than not, they’re the enforcers of the country’s new “anti-gay propaganda” law."

I mean, you know, they sound a teensy bit...Nazi? No? Ethnic cleansing, gay hatred? Not ringing any bells?

You should be ashamed of yourself when innocent trade unionists died and women were beaten to death as they jumped from windows as Neo Nazis with swastikas beat and burned and shot people to death in the pay of oligarchs.

Pro Ukrainian thugs are as hateful as Pro Russian thugs, and both were to blame.

No they aren't actors. It is a civil war and people are on different sides. Children of five are on no side because they don't understand what it is about but the separatist fighters are fighting the Ukrainian government for autonomy and have defeated the Ukrainians repeatedly who have asked for more money from the EU to prop up their failing regime and to arm and train their military as they try to take on the separatists.

They were being beaten by the Ukrainian army, which is when Putin decided to step up his troop activity: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-number-of-russian-troops-killed-or-injured-fighting-in-ukraine-seems-to-have-been-accidentally-10472603.html

www.wsj.com/articles/more-russian-troops-enter-ukraine-1424342640

No they aren't actors. It is a civil war and people are on different sides. Children of five are on no side because they don't understand what it is about but the separatist fighters are fighting the Ukrainian government for autonomy and have defeated the Ukrainians repeatedly who have asked for more money from the EU to prop up their failing regime and to arm and train their military as they try to take on the separatists.

There are some true pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, but they were far outnumbered by agnostic pro-Ukraine-becoming-less-corrupt civilians. Russia needed to pour troops into a region where they thought they stoke a genuine uprising. Poor things.

They don't all want autonomy. It has nothing to do with the Russians. The Russian speaking separatists have taken up arms and have beaten the Azov battalions repeatedly and if Putin did not stop them repeatedly under the pleas of Merkel and Hollande then they would take Mariupol and many other regions too. Most people don't want to fight in any region. It is just a small hardcore of separatists and Azov battalions and forced conscripts.

I think you mean the Russian troops have taken up arms against the Ukrainian army, as the separatists & casuals failed to beat back the Ukrainian army and they needed reinforcements.

No it doesn't because people sepend the money in their pockets which causes business growth rather than handing that money over to the likes of Gordon Bennett who then proceeds to spend it on the Millenium Dome or wind farms or whatever folly a teenage adviser comes up with next.

No they don't. Tax cuts for lower income people (i.e. bottom 30%) does increase spending, but tax cuts for the middle classes results in saving increasing.

Not if the government is not full of Esatblishment stooges.

How are you going to stop people moving jobs from the Treasury to Goldman Sachs? How are you going to stop accountants trying to find loopholes?

It's about the American people and not ripping them off and the British people and not ripping them off. American jobs will return, Americans will have increased wealth and more disposable income since they won't have to hand it over to the Gordon Bennetts and they will buy more foreign wine and foreign cheese and foreign pharmaceuticals etc. We will use our own steel from Redcar to build our own building in the City of London instead of importing steel froo Korea and this will employ our own people who will spend their money instead of handing it over to the Gordon Bennetts. World prosperity will increase, people will have more money in their pockets and the Gordon Bennetts will have less money to waste on millenium domes and wind farms. It will be a victory for the American people, the British people and the people on the planet and it will be a defeat for the Gordon Bennetts.

But prices for good will increase hugely, leading to many Americans not being able to afford staples. The only reason the City of London exists is because of Free Trade! If Free trade ends, no City of London.

claig · 30/09/2015 14:40

'So why do all Republicans repudiate climate change - I thought they were all establishment? Are they not establishment now? '

Because they are pretenders, phoneys, Establishment. They have to pretend they are against it because they know that good, decent American Conservatives don't believe a word the Gordon Bennetts say about it. They don't believe "we have only 50 days to save the planet" so it would be political suicide for any Establishment Conservative Republican to openly reveal that they believe in the hogwash. But the good, decent American Conservatives don't trust Jeb and the Establishment team as far as they can throw them, so they vote for The Donald instead in spite of all the media and Establishment pleas and exhortations to come back to the Establishment fold.

'No, I believe my friends who used to live in Donetsk but now live in Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev & Volgograd. '

Are they supporters of the Azov battalions? Do they support the bombing and shelling of civilans, the maiming and killing of Ukrainian women and children by their own coup government forces filled with foreign appointees in many strategic positions like the Georgian Saakashvili in Odessa, backed by oligarch money?

"I mean why has Russia fought so hard to keep Chechnya?"

Because a bunch of Wahhabi inspired Saudi funded Jihadi terrorists were bombing Russia.

'Putin relies hugely on nationalist right wing Russian national pride to prop up his regime. These people can't take the idea that Ukraine, a country they perceive as being really a part of Russia, should join the EU and illustrate once and for all how bankrupt the Russian political and social system is. '

No he doesn't. The Russian people don't want Russia to invade Ukraine, whom they see as Russian brothers where Kiev itself is the birthplace of the Russian state and the kingdom of the original Rus princes and where the Cossacks support Putin. The Western Galician nationalist fringe of Ukraine was only incorporated into the Soviet Union under Stalin. Before it had belonged to Poland etc. They speak Russian in Ukraine in lots of areas, they have relatives in Russia, the links between the countries have been close for centuries (not with the Galician Western fringe who were subject to the Poles) and the people in some regions do not wish to break links with Russia and make closer links with the Poles and Germans in the EU and they don't want to see their industries and jobs decimated by more competitive German industry and manufacturing.

'In addition they don't want Donetsk to fully join with Russia as they need to have some influence over Kiev - if Eastern Ukraine leaves, the remaining part of Ukraine will be overwhelmingly pro-NATO. '

Lots of the people in Donetsk would like to join Russia but Putin won't let them. He wants a negotiated deal on autonomy because he doesn't want a Ukrainian failed state on his doorstep.

'For the same reason billionaire Putin has funded a civil war in Ukraine. Power.'

No. Putin is the leader of a country, not a businnessman. He has responsibility for millions of people's lives and feels a link with Russian speaking citizens in Ukraine who have relatives across the border in Russia. He doesn't want the EU to wreck their lives and create a failed state that can be plundered by foreign billionaires. That is why he has consistently tried to create a peaceful solution to the situation that the coup government instigated.

You are believing propaganda. Russian nationalists and Neo-Nazis want to topple Putin because they think he is not tough enough just like the Ukjrainian Azov battalions and Right Sector want to topple Poroshenko because they think he is not tough enough on the separatists and Russians and because although he keeps talking about "total war" along with his banker sidekick, Yats, he hasn't had the nerve to take Putin on.

'Pro Ukrainian thugs are as hateful as Pro Russian thugs, and both were to blame.'

The difference is that Pro Ukrainian thugs or more accurately Yarosh and Right Sector and Svoboda overthrew an elected President in a coup backed by the EU and Russian thugs didn't.

'There are some true pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, but they were far outnumbered by agnostic pro-Ukraine-becoming-less-corrupt civilians.'

Of course they were outnumbered because most people do not want to fight and take up arms. That is the same everywhere. Civilians are not soldiers. The Right Sector Neo-Nazis are a small proportion of Ukrainian citizens and the Russian separatists are a small minority of the Rusian speaking regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.

'How are you going to stop people moving jobs from the Treasury to Goldman Sachs? How are you going to stop accountants trying to find loopholes?'

If you want to do it, you can create a law that no Treasury official can take a job in a private financial organisation for a period of 10 years. If you want to, you can do it. But that is not the problem anyway. The problem is puppets who serve the elite instead of the people.

'How are you going to stop accountants trying to find loopholes?''

You tighten the law and employ the brightest accountants in the country amd substantially increase their numbers in departments in order to clamp down on loopholes and when you find them you close them.

'But prices for good will increase hugely, leading to many Americans not being able to afford staples. '

People will have to pay a fair price for milk so that local dairy farmers can make a living and so that 1 or 2 of them no longer have to go out of business per day. This will keep farmers in business and in profit so they don't need government handouts for unemployment and so that they pay tax and the customers who work in steel companies will have secure jobs so that they can afford to pay more for their milk. That is a truly "sustainable" economy, a word the Gordon Bennetts use over their man-made climate change story. What it will mean is that the corporations will make les profit as they won't be able to compete unfairly by putting local farmers out of business by moving production abroad where wages are cheaper. The elite won't like it, their servant political class of expense fiddlers and lobbyist fund receivers won't like it, but the people will love it.

'The only reason the City of London exists is because of Free Trade! If Free trade ends, no City of London.'

The only reason Free Trade exists is because of the City of London and its lobbyists who have half the political class in their pockets. Watch Donald Trump and watch the elite's panic as he gets closer to power and as the entire free trade, climate change game starts to collapse.

"'President Trump' May Not Be So Far-Fetched - And the Polls Scare the Establishment to Death"

OP posts:
claig · 30/09/2015 15:03

Alyosha, I don't know what you are doing in the Labour Party, particularly Corbyn's Labour Party. You should join the Conservative Party. You are half way there with your Blairite Tory-lite beliefs. The Tories will welcome you with open arms and teach you how to suck up to the elite even better than Blair can.

OP posts:
claig · 30/09/2015 15:16

I suppose you support the smug public school millionaire Tory MPs we see interviewed by Andrew Neil who say we can't intervene to save the jobs of 1700 steelworkers in this country because it doesn't make economic sense and that we should instead import cheaper steel from abroad which keeps those workers employed instead.

That's free trade apparently, a free-for-all where local workers are shafted and Trade Union rights are obliterated so that nobody can protest and where the EU (run by bankers who override the democratic will and sovereignty of citizens) forbids national government intervention to protect their own industries from the ravages of the markets and the City speculators who invest in shares abroad, while local people are packed off to the dole queues.

OP posts:
Alyosha · 30/09/2015 15:19

Because they are pretenders, phoneys, Establishment. They have to pretend they are against it because they know that good, decent American Conservatives don't believe a word the Gordon Bennetts say about it. They don't believe "we have only 50 days to save the planet" so it would be political suicide for any Establishment Conservative Republican to openly reveal that they believe in the hogwash. But the good, decent American Conservatives don't trust Jeb and the Establishment team as far as they can throw them, so they vote for The Donald instead in spite of all the media and Establishment pleas and exhortations to come back to the Establishment fold.

But establishment conservative republicans say they don't believe in climate change all the time - www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/17/climate-change-denial-scepticism-republicans-congress

Are they supporters of the Azov battalions? Do they support the bombing and shelling of civilans, the maiming and killing of Ukrainian women and children by their own coup government forces filled with foreign appointees in many strategic positions like the Georgian Saakashvili in Odessa, backed by oligarch money?

I think they are more annoyed at Russia invading. They support Ukrainian forces fighting back against Russia - not specifically Azov battalions but they do support the Ukrainian army. Some of them have volunteered.

Because a bunch of Wahhabi inspired Saudi funded Jihadi terrorists were bombing Russia.

How does that follow?

No he doesn't. The Russian people don't want Russia to invade Ukraine, whom they see as Russian brothers where Kiev itself is the birthplace of the Russian state and the kingdom of the original Rus princes and where the Cossacks support Putin. The Western Galician nationalist fringe of Ukraine was only incorporated into the Soviet Union under Stalin. Before it had belonged to Poland etc. They speak Russian in Ukraine in lots of areas, they have relatives in Russia, the links between the countries have been close for centuries (not with the Galician Western fringe who were subject to the Poles) and the people in some regions do not wish to break links with Russia and make closer links with the Poles and Germans in the EU and they don't want to see their industries and jobs decimated by more competitive German industry and manufacturing.

I am well aware the Russian populace doesn't want to invade Ukraine. That's why Putin is maintaining a veil of plausible deniability (which gets less plausible by the day...). However, because Kiev is the birthplace of the Kievan Rus, they feel entitled to have some influence on the Ukrainian govt. They feel it ought to be pro-Russia. How do you know they don't want to join the EU? Everyone, literally EVERYONE wanted to join the EU when I lived in Ukraine. They hated NATO but they wanted to join the EU...to them it symbolised less corruption, freedom of movement, investment. Yanukovich was elected on a policy of visa free travel with the EU & closer links with the EU!

You are believing propaganda. Russian nationalists and Neo-Nazis want to topple Putin because they think he is not tough enough just like the Ukjrainian Azov battalions and Right Sector want to topple Poroshenko because they think he is not tough enough on the separatists and Russians and because although he keeps talking about "total war" along with his banker sidekick, Yats, he hasn't had the nerve to take Putin on.

So you do admit that Russia has invaded Ukraine then?

The difference is that Pro Ukrainian thugs or more accurately Yarosh and Right Sector and Svoboda overthrew an elected President in a coup backed by the EU and Russian thugs didn't.

No, it was a mass movement. Supported by many in the East. As you can see with a cursory glance over article from the East.

Of course they were outnumbered because most people do not want to fight and take up arms. That is the same everywhere. Civilians are not soldiers. The Right Sector Neo-Nazis are a small proportion of Ukrainian citizens and the Russian separatists are a small minority of the Rusian speaking regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.

So how did these volunteers manage to acquire Russian registered tanks and troops with Siberian accents? How come the Ukrainian govt. was winning and then Russian "aid" convoys crossed into Ukraine, and suddenly "volunteers" with tanks are rolling through the East?

If you want to do it, you can create a law that no Treasury official can take a job in a private financial organisation for a period of 10 years. If you want to, you can do it. But that is not the problem anyway. The problem is puppets who serve the elite instead of the people.

Do you think any top accountant will take a job with the govt. with that clause?!

People will have to pay a fair price for milk so that local dairy farmers can make a living and so that 1 or 2 of them no longer have to go out of business per day. This will keep farmers in business and in profit so they don't need government handouts for unemployment and so that they pay tax and the customers who work in steel companies will have secure jobs so that they can afford to pay more for their milk. That is a truly "sustainable" economy, a word the Gordon Bennetts use over their man-made climate change story. What it will mean is that the corporations will make les profit as they won't be able to compete unfairly by putting local farmers out of business by moving production abroad where wages are cheaper. The elite won't like it, their servant political class of expense fiddlers and lobbyist fund receivers won't like it, but the people will love it.

Why are local dairy farmers more important than low paid workers? It's not as though agriculture has been a mass employer in the UK for a long time. It sounds like an anti-free trade economy, which as any fule kno, did not work out well for the UK in the 70s. Or indeed the 19th century - the elites then were keen to stop free trade. Strange to see you support large agricultural interests against the working industrial proletariat.

The only reason Free Trade exists is because of the City of London and its lobbyists who have half the political class in their pockets. Watch Donald Trump and watch the elite's panic as he gets closer to power and as the entire free trade, climate change game starts to collapse.

You know this will lead to mass unemployment, right?

Shutthatdoor · 30/09/2015 15:20

Alyosha, I don't know what you are doing in the Labour Party, particularly Corbyn's Labour Party. You should join the Conservative Party. You are half way there with your Blairite Tory-lite beliefs. The Tories will welcome you with open arms and teach you how to suck up to the elite even better than Blair can.

Kinder politics is going well then.

As JC has said himself, the Labour party encompasses a lot of views. You can't tell people to go and join another party, just because they may not think JC is some kind of saviour and his policies will save us all.

Alyosha · 30/09/2015 15:25

Shutthatdoor - exactly!

I am against a lot of Tory policies. Cutting tax credits. Cutting public services. Following the disastrous example of the US and letting private scamsters set up "universities" to milk the public purse.

But to respond to another one of your points, claig...

"I suppose you support the smug public school millionaire Tory MPs we see interviewed by Andrew Neil who say we can't intervene to save the jobs of 1700 steelworkers in this country because it doesn't make economic sense and that we should instead import cheaper steel from abroad which keeps those workers employed instead.

That's free trade apparently, a free-for-all where local workers are shafted and Trade Union rights are obliterated so that nobody can protest and where the EU (run by bankers who override the democratic will and sovereignty of citizens) forbids national government intervention to protect their own industries from the ravages of the markets and the City speculators who invest in shares abroad, while local people are packed off to the dole queues."

Let's take this to the logical conclusion. We save the steel factory. It produces steel at a loss. We force British business to buy this expensive steel. British businesses become less competitive & raise their prices. They lose overseas contracts. They go bust. More people lose their jobs.

It's a tragedy that 1700 people are losing their jobs - but the govt. hasn't intervened to save jobs at Tesco or jobs elsewhere in the economy. Why is steel a special case?

Free trade has provided huge benefits for ordinary working people. It needs to be regulated to prevent runaway exploitation of workers, but in general Free Trade = good.

claig · 30/09/2015 15:33

'You can't tell people to go and join another party, just because they may not think JC is some kind of saviour'

Shutthatdoor, I am not saying it because Alyosha doesn't like Corbyn, but because nearly everything she believes is what the Tories believe. If she is worried about the Tories not being politically correct enough and not believeing in man-made climate change, then she should remember that the Tories are modernisers just like Blair.

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Alyosha · 30/09/2015 15:38

I am worried that the Tories are cutting benefits hugely, cutting inheritance tax, letting british citizens remain non doms (as Labour did, shamefully), letting the private sector scam students and drive doctors out of the UK.

Alyosha · 30/09/2015 15:38

So no, I don't accept I am a Tory because I think Putin is the biggest threat to world peace the world has ever seen.

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