My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

MNHQ have commented on this thread

Politics

France and Greece Election results!

554 replies

LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 02:04

So, what do you think it means for Europe?

OP posts:
Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 11:59

Some things never left me in life and one was in History being told about the collapse of currencies in the 1900's, people walking around with wheelbarrows of cash, not being able to get their money out of the banks.

People in Greece are abandoning their children, they can't afford to feed.

I don't understand this at all, if this was after a natural disaster the kids in schools, blue peter and the like would be fund raising and all sorts, and we are just allowing fellow europeans to abandon children? No one is doing anything to help? I have never been to Greece on holiday, I am sure many have and they stand by and do nothing?

This is really odd behaviour by the British public!

OP posts:
Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:00

or even quantitative easing...

Report
claig · 07/05/2012 12:00

Exactly, if they are all fine and dandy now, why do we keep having to do quantitaive easing and if we have the money for bailing banks out, why can't we inject some of that money int public works such as housebuilding which will create jobs for people rather than bonuses for bankers?

Report
CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/05/2012 12:02

I think, if there's a red herring, it is this continued tendency to blame the banks. What happened was extraordinarly bad management, admittedly, it was expensive short-term, more heads should have rolled and more conditionality should have been placed on them than actually happened. However, it is a too simplistic response to say 'it's the fault of the banks' or even 'tax the banks' as if that were the solution.

The underlying economic problem is that, despite cutting back on spending, our exchequer revenues are still exceeding current expenditure (on things like the NHS) by a large margin and were doing so for quite a long time before the crash. In a global commercial environment where you can't really point a finger at a country or currency that is economically healthy, we will struggle to bump up our exports - and that is traditionally where 'growth' comes from that will get the balance sheet going back the other way..

Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:02

Dave and Gideon chose to print and pump money into the banks, rather than direct expenditure. The banks chose to keep that money, and will undoubtedly "owe" the state nothing before too long.

Report
CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/05/2012 12:03

Bank revenue is about generating income. Quantitiative easing is about releasing credit.

Report
claig · 07/05/2012 12:03

Very good point LadyEDS. There are no appeals for the Greeks on TV. Mandelson told us on Radio 4's Today programme that the Greeks are the authors of their own problems.

As a Greek told John Humphrey on the Today programme this morning, the money that is going into Greece from the EU is not helping Greek people, it is all going to pay interest to teh bankers, whoi caused the financial crisis in teh first place.

Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:04

There are in fact some countries and currencies that are economically healthy, only not in the west.

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:04

Cogito, you are bright and have information available to you, please show me a country's economy that is not in debt and living beyond it's means?

I suspect you will say China, who I read in The New Scientist, is steeling the water from Bangladesh!

OP posts:
Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:04

So tell us where the released credit has gone?

Report
CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/05/2012 12:05

So we need to encourage business from those healthy countries to trade with us, buy our goods and/or locate to the UK where they can create jobs. But if the government makes moves to do that they get yelled at for 'helping the rich' ... 'helping their fat-cat mates'.

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:07

Did you read my link?

First they came for ...

That is the governments attitude, the same as Mandlesons, the press's attitude and the propoganda got through to joe public, they couldn't give a shit about the Greeks, and are doing nothing to help these people!

OP posts:
Report
claig · 07/05/2012 12:07

If no country is economically healthy and if businesses across the planet are being squeezed as growth plummets (except maybe for banks who seem to receive endless quantitaive easing), then who is lending us money and where are they getting it from?

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:09

England has been dominated a "Tourist destination" by the EU, we have been knocked at the back of the knees by Europe regarding manufacture, all we have is banking, I know enough to know we eat all our own produced asparagus for example, what else have we to trade Cogito?

OP posts:
Report
CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/05/2012 12:10

@Lady... a country in debt is not a disaster in itself because economies tend to be cyclical. Gordon Brown himself started out by espousing the 'Golden Rule' of fiscal policy ... where debt is only taken on in the down part of the cycle to finance long-term, capital, growth projects that benefit society and is then covered by the surplus generated when the economy returns to growth. What debt should not be used for under the Golden Rule is current expenditure. What Brown did was precisely that. Created a massive welfare state and public sector (which is not capital, long-term or wealth generating) at a time when we could have gone into surplus and then gambled there would never be another downturn. Remember 'an end to boom and bust'.

So debt is not a bad thing for an economy to a point, but when we get past that point and we're spending as much as we do on the NHS financing the debt, something has got out of kilter.

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:11

Claig, I still am in confusion about the ownership of the Bank of England, is it still owned by persons unknown? or it is a case of persons unknown and a bit of the Government, since the last labour government?

I don't understand why these bright people don't query this sort of stuff?

OP posts:
Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:12

Quantitative easing as we all know is where the state purchases financial assets from banks. Ooh that means the banks generates revenue, and hey presto they can repay their bail outs. Shame that failed to translate into more lending.

Like the bottom 20%, the top 10% are squeezed much more than the middle income band. Something's not working, and Vince Cable being a trained economist, too...

Report
EdithWeston · 07/05/2012 12:12

Here's a useful BBC Q&A about quantative easing, the first round of which was under Labour.

Report
CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/05/2012 12:12

"what else have we to trade Cogito?"

We still have a surprisingly large manufacturing sector. We can trade financial services... back to those nasty old banks that so many would like to kill off entirely. We have an intellectual power-base... a company based in Cambridge is the brain behind the Apple I-Pad chip, for example. Plenty going on.

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:13

So is there a country that has an economy that is not in more debt then Cog?

I remember being Hmm at Brown over his end to boom and bust thing, he broke the 5 year cycle, he didn't break the cycle. To be fair to Brown the bust was caused by an internation issue rather than a national issue.

OP posts:
Report
thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:14

Lady I think it's about who they choose to listen to, rather than bright people not querying stuff...

Tackling public expenditure as a % of GDP is a separate issue from sound economic policy.

Report
EdithWeston · 07/05/2012 12:15

The Bank of England was privately owned until nationalisation in 1946, and since 1998 it has been an independent public body owned by the Treasury Solicitor on behalf of the Government. 1998 was also when Labour gave it independence in setting monetary policy.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

thirdhill · 07/05/2012 12:16

Nobody wants to kill off banking, cogito. We simply want them to be rewarded and punished according to their actions.

Report
LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 12:17

I have been feeling uneasy about the banks since they collapsed, uneasy about the way the vunerable are treated in this country, uneasy about the press/government/police etc since hacking, uneasy about the way the Greek people are being spoken about and treated and very uneasy about the Euro.

OP posts:
Report
EdithWeston · 07/05/2012 12:18

I don't know how accurate this is, but it does suggest that Chinese banks have sizeable risky "off balance sheet" debts.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.