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Politics

France and Greece Election results!

554 replies

LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 02:04

So, what do you think it means for Europe?

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 13:41

Claig to fire these loss making creeps, we have to do what the Ants in Bugs life did Wink sadly we can't do that. Our emails can be read by the government, we don't have permission to go up to where the Government governs, we have camera's everywhere, Typhoons over head, armed police and soldiers all over the place, even to have a demonstration we have to ask for permission and the police will kettle us, I could go on...

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 13:42

Iceland let their banks fail!

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WasabiTillyMinto · 07/05/2012 13:43

Latin America did recover - but they were seen as a great investment opportunity and greed overrode fear.

I dont really think anyone sees Greece as a great investment opprtunity. thier problems are much larger than just overborrowing.

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claig · 07/05/2012 13:45

A Bug's Life sounds like an interesting movie. I will have to watch it.

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RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief · 07/05/2012 13:46

Lat Am is chocka full of natural resources, as Wasabi says. However, it has been a long road back. Thirty years is a working life. Bummer if it happens to coincide with your working life.

.......and Africa is still up shit creek without a paddle and getting stealth colonised by the Chinese

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claig · 07/05/2012 13:47

Banks make lots on interest, and if they can recover after several years, then couldn't they take some losses on their books, rather than forcing people who had nothing to do with it to bail them out?

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thirdhill · 07/05/2012 13:48

The Greek bail out requires as much a change of practice as the life they would face after default. Who is investing in Greece now? You may find they are not that dependent on western banks. Default is economically the best option, has the best track record in such a situation.

If you were Greek, would you choose default or this?

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 13:49

Claig, there is a very good line where the Grasshopper says something like "if those pesky ants realised how much we needed them and how many more of them there are than us..."

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claig · 07/05/2012 13:51

We all know that a sovereign country will eventually after 500 years be able to pay back debt. We recently finished paying the US back for our war loans. Why can't teh banks just accept a much lower rate of interest over a much longer period? They will still get their money, but will get less profit, and maybe even make losses for several years. But it won't lead to children being abandoned and old age pensioners committing suicide and young people having no hope.

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claig · 07/05/2012 13:53

'Default is economically the best option'

Of course it is, but the bankers and their puppets, the technocrats, won't let them off the hook. They reeled them in to the Euro by fiddling figures and cooking books and now they won't let the people off the hook.

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 13:55

I think it is no accident that Gold is so expencive at the moment.

I have not sold my useless Gold, not that I have a lot, as it may be all there is to barter with when the banks collapse again, which I am fearfull they will.

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WasabiTillyMinto · 07/05/2012 13:55

Greece is going to be in a bad place until they take responsibility for themselves. they have had a great opprtunity in joining the EU. instead they didnt even bother to collect taxes.

they arent going to be able to care for the vlunerable in society until they step up. trying to avoid austerity just 'kicking the can down the road'.

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RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief · 07/05/2012 13:55

thirdhill what I was talking about is cost of capital, which is applicable to all investors, not just banks, western or otherwise. A Russian Oligarch/ Chinese SIV wont lend cheaply either.

The basic principle when lending within a country is that you first look at the rate on government debt, and assume that as your "risk free rate" (yeah I know- the irony)as the government is the least likely creditor within a country to default. Then you increase the rate for the risks inherent in your specific investment and your type of investment (loan or equity).

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claig · 07/05/2012 13:56

Also, didn't Orange County sue some of these financial institutions for selling them derivative products which went belly up, and aren't some councils even thinking of that? What about miss-selling? What about the financial advisers and politicians who cooked teh books in Greece? Isn't that a case of miss-selling?

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 13:58

Wasabi, and as fellow dwellers on the planet Earth we sit back and let the vulnerable in Greece do what die?

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NovackNGood · 07/05/2012 13:59

The point is that ALL the Greeks were on the tax avoidance and expecting benefits from the government. Look at the retirement rates they had. Hairdressers allowed to retire at 50 with a state pension equal to 95% of their last working salary because they claim they used chemicals. Same with many Chefs. Railway workers, including drivers,cleaners and labourers earned on average 60,000, 3 times the public sector average. Ticket income on railways 80million a year salaries 500 million a year.

EU paid for the Athens underground so it was ready for the Olympics and to help persuade Greece to push itself to sort itself our for the euro. They built the system them the Greek citizen did not pay for the ticket even though they used it all the time as they felt it was their gift from us. That is the problem with a sense of entitlement which so sadly so many in the UK have these days.

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RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief · 07/05/2012 13:59

We all know that a sovereign country will eventually after 500 years be able to pay back debt

No, we absolutely don't know that and assume makes an ass out of u and me. The state could fail, could cease to exist, could get nuked by the North Koreans, could say "fuck you".

The interest rate isnt just a random rate dreamed up to annoy people. It reflects the risk to the investor.

eg at an equal return, would you rather own german government debt or Greek government debt?

German right? Yup, you and the rest of the world

But what if you could earn 5 x as much by owning the Greek debt?

Now a few people might say they'll finance the Greeks

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WasabiTillyMinto · 07/05/2012 14:00

Lady - 1 billion people are hungry every day. why are you so worried about Greece?

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RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief · 07/05/2012 14:02

They dont even have to stay in greece. It's the EU. free labour market and all that.

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alexpolismum · 07/05/2012 14:04

NovackNGood - Funny really, one minute you had hairdressers retiring at 43, the next minute at 50.

I beg to differ with your assertion that ALL Greek avoided tax. I can assure you I know plenty of people who have always paid their taxes. Not the super rich, it is true.

If Greeks never buy a Metro ticket, why did I spend so long in queues at the ticket offices and machines when I lived in Athens?

But what do I know, I've only lived here for 15 years. I bow to your superior knowledge.

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claig · 07/05/2012 14:06

'Lady - 1 billion people are hungry every day. why are you so worried about Greece?'

Because they were conned by their political class and the financial advisers who took them into the Euro. What happened to them could easily happen to other countries acroos Europe.

The book cookers, the financial advisers, knew all about early retirement in Greece and tax evasion, but they didn't mention it when they cooked the books to take them into the Euro. Now that it has gone belly up and the Greek people don't want to pay the bankers, now they bring ot up.

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NovackNGood · 07/05/2012 14:08

Yes I was wrong at 43 it is 50 which is why I corrected it with the actual fact.

Interesting fact number two. Known property wealth of Greek Orthodox Church 700 Billion or more than twice the total of all greek debt.

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LadyWithEDS · 07/05/2012 14:10

The unemployed or those on low income are being told to move to Hull in this country... as I said earlier first they came for... now there is no one to speak for me...

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WasabiTillyMinto · 07/05/2012 14:10

Errm they werent complaining when they were pissing lots of EU money up the wall. e.g. retire at 50.

they are only complaining when they have to pay it back.

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WasabiTillyMinto · 07/05/2012 14:13

Lady - then put your hand in your pocket.

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