How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

Nobody has an issue with the pensioners claiming what is there right, the state pension and the top ups too if they need them.
But the amounts aren't impossible to live on at all. The poorest pensioner gets £132, a single mum gets less than that for her and her child to live on.

*their right sorry

/////Nobody has an issue with the pensioners claiming what is there right, the state pension and the top ups too if they need them.//////

I do, I believe that pensioners should receive a decent state pension without having the need for top ups.

Many pensioners feel insulted and degraded by having to apply for means tested handouts because they cant live on the state pension.

And the disabled don;t Ivanhoe? That's what i find confusing..

good on you I guess for fighting a corner and all but I am completely bewilderd why you only care about one section adnd seem totally oblivious to others?

giving pensioners a big state pension means taking from other benefits- or would in practice. Who would you take from, seriously? My autistic kids? carers? recently redundant people? Sick people? Working poor, not working poor?

It's a balancing act and the bogey man isn;t the fact of it being amde up by separate payments from different systems, but the shame in applying for emans tested payments: we'd be better off working to alleviate that to be honest.

Well they either claim it or they freeze according to you so it's rather cutting their nose off to spite their faces if they decide not to isn't it ?

I can see you havent the insight to know what pride feels like.

/////giving pensioners a big state pension means taking from other benefits- or would in practice. Who would you take from, seriously? My autistic kids? carers? recently redundant people? Sick people? Working poor, not working poor?//////

This is part of what im saying, the politicians pit us all against each other, and we let them do it, because we havent the savvy or guts to fight back.

Who was the insaight comment to ivanhoe? if it was me you were worng.

I am however lacking the narrow minded atotude to fight for one aspect pof society when I could fight for many. I also happen to be a carer who loathes dependency so yep, know too much about pride- and how very damaging it can be when misplaced.

Ivanhoe the only person pitted against anyone here is the person yelling for one group and no other. You.

But I am having a deja vuue moment as you've done exactly this thread before .

but Santas, Ivanhoe is a socialist who hates Thatcher. I think Ivanhoe is in the side of all poor people and is just highlighting the plight of the pensioners.

We know that it is true that often the forms and hurdles are so complicated that people don't claom what they are entitled to, and we know that often poor families feel ashamed to claom free meals etc. and dislike means testing. It is usually teh socialists who are rightly against means testing for those reasons, because they know that many poor people will not claim what they are entitled to. It is not because they are stupid. They are human and have feelings and emotions and teh socialists usually understand that and that is why they are rightly in favour of universal benefits in some cases, to ensure that the most needy are actually looked after.

I think Ivanhoe is right that there is a divide and conquer strategy and it seems to have affected many people, who instead of uniting and demanding change from fatcats who dictate policy, instead focus on the benefits of other poor people.

Pride tends to come before a fall doesn't it ?

Where have I ever amde any anti thatcher comments Claig? I am not her biggest fan but I don;t tend to get invovled with asll that if I can help it. Not suremI'd call myself a social;ist either tbh: ther aint no boxes to fit me.

OOp sorry Claig, marauding toddler made me lsoe concentrationa nd fuck that up didn't it?

Left winged realist, that's me: protect the poor but realise tehre's not enough money so you can;t spend on all the stuff you want: payments for heating for rich older people? nice, unaffordable.

if she's after promotong all poor people great: she needs to state that.

Santas, I though you implied that Ivanhoe didn't care about disabled people. I just mentioned that Ivanhoe is a socialist who hates Thatcher, so I think Ivanhoe does probably care about all poor and disabled people.

'Left winged realist, that's me: protect the poor but realise tehre's not enough money so you can;t spend on all the stuff you want: payments for heating for rich older people? nice, unaffordable.'

I don't believe there isn't enough money and I think Ivanhoe may have said teh same earlier on, but I haven't read the whole thread. Where did the money come from to bail out Ireland, to bail out the banks, to wage wars, to increase the foreign aid budget, to pay the EU?

I think Labour are right that some of these cuts are ideological, but I also think Labour aren't too different from the Tories.
It was Caroline Flint who told the unemployed, "work or lose your home".

Hmm.

I agreee about ireland etc and tbh am a little hmm at he footie bid though don;t know enough to make a firm judgement.

but I'd never bote LD agin: I can;t, they no longer prepresent what I beleive. I can;t vote Tory as it is ideologically teh opposite of what I think so find I am left with labour (have written off Green as well on basis of local party members being rather unpleasant after I tried them out- lots of nasty in fighting).

I think there's money too, but I don;t believe it would be diverted to the benefit system and that's the thing: the relaism part as it were; if the ruling party only allocates so much to that then that's all there is to fight for. And yes pensioners end up ridiculously poor- but the whole DLA cut to people in care homes and even residential schools who are only there 30 weeks a ywar (well will be all year now because their parents have had their specially adapted cars removed) stinks too. Obviously I have to fight for my own chidlren, that's a given IMO, but the pensions thing will likely affect us as DH ahsn;t been able to put much aside and I am a carer but well, at least Dh and I have had a life: I am not so sure ds3 will get much of that once he turns adult. I honestly don;t beleive there's anyone much looking out for him politically, I haven't seen much anyway.

But perhaps that's the case for pensioners as well: I get silversurer (must find out why, I'm 37 not 67!) so see the political actoivity they support every dauy in my inbox.

Oh and caroline Flint may well have said that but she didn;t say '....and then, when you've been rehoused and settled, just as you nstart to get back on your feet we will reassess you and ship upu out again'. Possibly the most demotivational policy either: if you get a job or a promotion, you lose your home. Don't get it one bit.

claig your bang on, the trouble with the British middlle classes is that they have been brought up expecting everything to revolve round them, they are childish, infantile, and they mums, which makes things worse.

Ah well not everyone here is middle class Ivnahoe: that may be where you are annoying people?

I know we have the rep, but it's not true. not unless you count my upbringing (bridgwater council estate) as MC LOL (if you don;t knwo the palce- er no, certainly not).

We have the rep but it's not really true. It's a bit like claiming all actors are rich becuase the best known ones are- in fact are not, but they tend to have less of a voice and be less obvious. Exactly teh same with WC people on MN. Just IMO obv.

I think Caroline Flint did say that. I think she said that council house tenants would be reviwed every 5 years, I may be wrong.

You have mentioned your dad before and how his pension was robbed because his company was bought by an American company. It is fatcats who allowed that to happen, and it has happened to many people. It is a scandal. They are supposed to make laws to protect people.

'I think there's money too, but I don;t believe it would be diverted to the benefit system and that's the thing: the relaism part as it were; if the ruling party only allocates so much to that then that's all there is to fight for.'

None of the fatcats will do anything if we don't fight for our rights. We should unite, and not divert ourselves with the benefits that other poor people are getting. We should ask where has the money come from to bail out the banks?

claig,

How are we going to do this then ?

Thatcher's free market has brought all this on us.

I don't know how to do this. I am a Tory, but yes Thatcher did do some wrong things as well as some right things. I think that Labour are not too different to the Tories in many key aspects, such as the increase in the pension age which was championed by Harman and then accelerated by Duncan-Smith. I don't know the answer. But the answer is not to turn on each other, it must be to unite and seek changes from fatcats who are decide to spend money on some things (such as bailing out banks) and not on poor people.

I was brought up in a council house. One that my gps bought for a song after living in it for 30 years under the Right to Buy thing. They were not high earners but now own their own property outright and have a very comfortable retirement.

I rent. I am positively scared as to what retirement holds for me. The older generation were positively HELPED by Thatcher ffs. The stupid house price thing that has gone on since - property being seen as a money making exercise as opposed to a home - has screwed it for many of us now.

////The older generation were positively HELPED by Thatcher ffs////

Utter naive garbage.

Thatcher broke the earnings link on state pensions, and under her opportunist right to buy policy to get votes off working class people, she also stopped building council houses which is why todays generation of young people will never be able to rent first and but later

ivanhoe, didn't I say that - she helped working class voters (i.e my grandparents) and now we are all screwed? How is that naive garbage, pray?