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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

If someone claimed to be the Son of God today…

581 replies

Nutcracks · 13/12/2024 22:46

If someone claimed today all the things that Jesus did/said, would you believe them?

Curious about how people would respond in today’s world.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:18

whathaveiforgotten · 21/12/2024 16:09

@Feelingathomenow

you say he’s a doctor so ime will certainly have an ego problem

Saying things like this about a stranger is very judgemental. Letting yourself down if you're meant to live by the Christian faith, surely?

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

"But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?” (James 4:11-12)

Who says I live by Christian faith? I believe in balance. This includes not being kind where severity would be a better reaction. There’s a difference between judging whether someone has sinned )what the above quotes are referring to and judging what the character of another is to enable you to respond appropriately

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:20

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 15:49

I've read it all the way through three times, starting as a schoolgirl. I've also read many commentaries, I follow up when I hear of fresh discoveries, and I look into the wider social and political contexts. I am an atheist.

I can't be bothered to dispute the multiple inaccuracies and no-sequiturs in these posts by devoted Christians - long experience tells me they get hurt & angry, and I'm not trying to 'evangelise' atheism. Believe what you like, but only as far as your faiths don't aspire to control the beliefs and actions of other people.

you're an atheist, why are you even on this board?

Although we live in a secular society, our culture's saturated with christianity. We have to know a fair bit about it if we want to understand our own world. There's also the inescapable fact that wars are still being fought, cruelties enacted and atrocities committed in the names of various religions. No rational person could pretend doesn't matter. Therefore it makes sense to discuss it.

It is well known that nothing ever was written down at the life time of Jesus

This is the bit I find absolutely hilarious! This world-changing preacher posed such an existential threat to the Romans and Pharisees/Sadducees that they conspired to hold a show trial and execution. The Romans wrote everything down, from tax records and requisition lists to military updates and political commentary.

The Sadducees wrote a lot, too, but their records seem to have been destroyed in the various sackings of Jerusalem. The Romans, by contrast, had an efficient international postal service. Yet not a single word of anything to do with this troublesome preacher was written for fifty (ish) years after his death, when a flood of 'witness' accounts suddenly began? Yeah. Nah.

Josephus was a two-faced military politician, utterly selfish and with a good eye for the main chance. He mentioned Jesus in passing, a century after the supposed crucifixion. The gospel of Mark is not believed to have been written by that Mark, and probably post-dates Josephus.

But it's all quite interesting as a live example of how religions are built (and why), what they tell us about human power games and the 'need to believe'.

I think we’re all keen to see you address
“the multiple inaccuracies and no-sequiturs in these posts by devoted Christians”

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:21

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 15:58

And, what’s your point?

Ah @Garlicwest / the laughing emoji, aka the social media sigil of stupidity

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:23

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:21

Ah @Garlicwest / the laughing emoji, aka the social media sigil of stupidity

Edited

Genghis found his way into the conversation somehow. He, like his predecessors, was the 'Son of God'. I found this amusing.

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:38

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:20

I think we’re all keen to see you address
“the multiple inaccuracies and no-sequiturs in these posts by devoted Christians”

You could find them yourself by reading outside the Bible and Christian-biased commentaries. There've been some wonderfully meaty threads on this board with contributions by academic theologists, philologists and comparative mythologists, etc, many of whom are Christians.

It's an easy start to look at Wikipedia and follow the links (not limiting yourself to the ones you'll agree with!) Here's an instance: Modern Bible scholars (i.e. most critical scholars) have concluded that the Gospel of Mark was written by an anonymous author rather than by Mark.[28][29][30][31] For instance, the author of the Gospel of Mark knew very little about the geography of the region (having apparently never visited it),[32][33][34][35] "was very far from being a peasant or a fisherman",[32] was unacquainted with Jewish customs (unlikely for someone from Palestine),[34][35] and was probably "a Hellenized Jew who lived outside of Palestine".[36]

Not going into non-sequiturs because any faith-based statement includes them.

Mark the Evangelist - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_the_Evangelist#cite_note-Evans_2014_p._252-35

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:39

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:23

Genghis found his way into the conversation somehow. He, like his predecessors, was the 'Son of God'. I found this amusing.

There might well be a point to be made, I’m not sure why that would be amusing though

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:45

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:39

There might well be a point to be made, I’m not sure why that would be amusing though

I supposed your comment "So if someone isn’t Ghengis Khan they're good?" was meant to be amusing. Maybe not, though. If it bothers you, you could always pray for a sense of humour.

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:46

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:38

You could find them yourself by reading outside the Bible and Christian-biased commentaries. There've been some wonderfully meaty threads on this board with contributions by academic theologists, philologists and comparative mythologists, etc, many of whom are Christians.

It's an easy start to look at Wikipedia and follow the links (not limiting yourself to the ones you'll agree with!) Here's an instance: Modern Bible scholars (i.e. most critical scholars) have concluded that the Gospel of Mark was written by an anonymous author rather than by Mark.[28][29][30][31] For instance, the author of the Gospel of Mark knew very little about the geography of the region (having apparently never visited it),[32][33][34][35] "was very far from being a peasant or a fisherman",[32] was unacquainted with Jewish customs (unlikely for someone from Palestine),[34][35] and was probably "a Hellenized Jew who lived outside of Palestine".[36]

Not going into non-sequiturs because any faith-based statement includes them.

Once again you’re just information dumping and not actually putting forward any argument

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:47

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 16:45

I supposed your comment "So if someone isn’t Ghengis Khan they're good?" was meant to be amusing. Maybe not, though. If it bothers you, you could always pray for a sense of humour.

Why would I pray, especially for something I have. It’s not my fault I don’t find you funny

Mischance · 21/12/2024 16:57

They would be sectioned.

DarkAether · 21/12/2024 17:12

Mischance · 21/12/2024 16:57

They would be sectioned.

there in lies the problem if a person or being did happen to say to the population x then its either gitmo, or psychologically etc, so why believe in a book that when or if the diety did arise from those beliefs its suddenly vanishes etc or yet causes another war

Parker231 · 21/12/2024 18:08

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:12

Ah so you blindly worship him because you love him and don’t think he can put a foot wrong? I’m sure he’s not “ego free” you need a. Ego to operate in this world. I can 100% guarantee at some point someone has thought “what a tosser” or “I don’t like that man” .

I think your comments would put you in the category for going to hell - you’re probably beyond saving !

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 19:06

Ooh I quite fancy the first circle!

DarkAether · 21/12/2024 19:11

why should anyone have believed the preaching's of someone hundreds of years ago, when if they were preaching the same information now, we would soon have recommending the person under the mental health team

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 19:31

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 16:46

Once again you’re just information dumping and not actually putting forward any argument

The information is the argument. This always goes the same way: faith requires no rationale, but it does drive some people to 'prove' its validity in rational terms. There's very little point to the exercise.

Christians: God wrote the bible.
Critics: If a deity wrote a book, he/they/it would hardly deliver it on scraps of parchment, in different languages and at different locations.
Christians: He wrote through his messengers, Christ's apostles for example.
Critics: The apostles didn't write those books. Here's some expert analysis.
Christians: You're just information dumping!
Critics: Yes, it's information about who wrote the gospels, and when/where.
Christians: They're wrong. The apostles witnessed Christ's works.
Critics: Even if the apostles wrote the gospels, they were born after his death.
Christians: Not long after. It was fresh in people's minds.
Critics: Ever wondered why there is no contemporary evidence that Jesus even existed, despite 1,993 years of intensive searching?
Christians: No.
Critics: OK, faith brooks no argument. So why keep asking for one?

AgileGreenSeal · 21/12/2024 19:41

whathaveiforgotten · 21/12/2024 15:27

@AgileGreenSeal

Your problem with understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that you see a person’s salvation as depending on their attempts at good works.

No, I completely understand that is the principle. I went to a religious school and grew in the catholic church.

I'm saying I believe that a god who bases salvation on that principle would be, in my option, a cruel one.

I understand you disagree, but that is my belief.

I simply can’t see how salvation freely offered to all, as a gift of grace for the taking, without discrimination or prejudice can be cruel.

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 20:00

Garlicwest · 21/12/2024 19:31

The information is the argument. This always goes the same way: faith requires no rationale, but it does drive some people to 'prove' its validity in rational terms. There's very little point to the exercise.

Christians: God wrote the bible.
Critics: If a deity wrote a book, he/they/it would hardly deliver it on scraps of parchment, in different languages and at different locations.
Christians: He wrote through his messengers, Christ's apostles for example.
Critics: The apostles didn't write those books. Here's some expert analysis.
Christians: You're just information dumping!
Critics: Yes, it's information about who wrote the gospels, and when/where.
Christians: They're wrong. The apostles witnessed Christ's works.
Critics: Even if the apostles wrote the gospels, they were born after his death.
Christians: Not long after. It was fresh in people's minds.
Critics: Ever wondered why there is no contemporary evidence that Jesus even existed, despite 1,993 years of intensive searching?
Christians: No.
Critics: OK, faith brooks no argument. So why keep asking for one?

So bearing in mind I’m not a Christian which of the characters am o playing in your little play? Information is never the argument. People use the information to back up the argument you’re making. You’ve made some claims, dumped a load of information but failed to give any narratives linking this to your argument then when asked to do that you’ve announced it’s all a waste of time and set out some imaginary conversation. Now that is a waste of everyone’s time.

RamblingEclectic · 21/12/2024 21:12

If they meant in any special 'Divine mission' way, I don't think so, but I don't think I can have any certainty that I could never be convinced of that. It would depend on more than just words though.

If they mean it in the 'I believe we all come from a Divine source and express that in this way', sure. I would at least believe that they believe that sincerely.

No, scripture makes it clear that in order to become a child of God, in a living relationship with Him, one must be born again, supernaturally born spiritually by God, not just born in a human way.

The scriptures are not clear on that. Phrases that can be translated are child or son of God are used dozens of times throughout the texts. There are many parts of the texts where, viewed solely on its own, it is very debateable and unclear who is being referenced as much of the cultural knowledge assumed by the authors no longer exists. There are also translation issues, such as how Hebrew, like many Semitic languages where 'son of' is commonly used as a group identifier (like asking if Saul is the son of prophets to ask if he is a prophet) which isn't used in Greek, so translations of the Hebrew texts that rely on the Greek tend to move from groups to individual titles.

Within the New Testament, yes, the version that that is referring to those who have come to Jesus is one version, a term of ideological designation shows up, but it used elsewhere to refer to all spirits (Book of Hebrews), Israel specifically as a nation which is then used by Paul in Acts to expand the definition to everyone and the implications he views on that, it's used to refer to angels, and there are a few times where how it is translated and treated textually has changed a lot and can be viewed as lesser deities, angels, all humans, an ethnic or people group designation, or an ideological one. For example, most branches of Judaism among others don't have the concept of angels being able to disobey, so when the phrase Bene Elohim or similar show up and they're rebelling, a Jewish commentary or summary will have that refering to humans, not angels, whereas the same parts of the texts within Christian denominations where angels can rebel, they are treated and the term often translated as angels.

at the time of the return of Christ the Earth will be under the Rule of the Antichrist. The term antichrist only appears in the Epistles of John, and it's an adjective to describe people who are opposed to Jesus, not a title of any individual. There is no 'the' Antichrist in the Bible, that was a later invention by certain denominations combining the term with the Beasts of Revelation.

Just as Xmas has nothing to do with Jesus as he wasn't born in cold December month but rather during Spring months of April/May.
Claiming he was born in spring has as little support as the claim of December or January (there is more than one date for Christmas). We have absolutely no idea what time of year he would have been born in and the texts make no claim on that. Just as any quotes by Jesus could be 'false attribution by those who never met or known Jesus personally', the nativity stories are literary, written by people who were not present and quite likely were trying to write a spiritual and group significant rather than historical account. There being shepherds in the fields does not give any time anymore than nativities discussing a census or where Mary and Joseph travelled from, which varies by gospel. The dating of Christmas comes the early church leaders before the canon was finalised, so far more gospels and other texts were involved, and they were responsible for deciphering the dates for Easter and from that the date of Christmas, and has everything to do with Jesus and the early churches views as they developed and separated out of Judaism, which was having multiple significant cultural shifts within it at the time.

I think your comments would put you in the category for going to hell - you’re probably beyond saving ! This rhetoric has used by some as part of religious abuse.

I simply can’t see how salvation freely offered to all, as a gift of grace for the taking, without discrimination or prejudice can be cruel.
After the development of God as omnipotent and omniscient in the early centuries CE and Hell as eternal torment gained traction within that time, it then raised the moral question on how omnibenevolent it is to create a living being knowing that they would get into a situation where it could be eternally tortured for not accepting a gift (or having their soul annihilated for it, many early church leaders leaned towards that), especially with textual evidence that God can and does change people's hearts to suit his purposes. Romans 9 particularly has had a lot of ethical discussion around it and has created a lot of pain and anguish over the centuries, the idea that it's okay for God to create people of wrath that God destined for destruction? That and other parts of the texts can give the impression that it is not a gift truly available to all and that it is not free. I mean, true, free consent cannot be given in the situation of coercion through threat of punishment, how more so is that when we're talking a Divine who, being all powerful and all knowing, could have created the universe and us in any way.

Having grown from an evangelical background and treated as an 'object of wrath', it is very cruel being told God could have made us and the world any way he wanted, but chose with infinite knowledge and power to make us in such a way that Hell is the default option - if we do nothing, we go to Hell; if it is willed, our hearts will be hardened and we go there anyways. Studying the development of the texts and these concepts is what I started young to cope with the pain that caused young me.

BettyBardMacDonald · 21/12/2024 21:54

DarkAether · 21/12/2024 19:11

why should anyone have believed the preaching's of someone hundreds of years ago, when if they were preaching the same information now, we would soon have recommending the person under the mental health team

Exactly.

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 22:27

BettyBardMacDonald · 21/12/2024 21:54

Exactly.

Well the majority of the psychiatric professionals seem to think it’s a good idea to back up boys who think they can magically become girls- might not be the best people to be using in any kind of argument about truth.

Sunnyflow · 21/12/2024 22:49

why should anyone have believed the preaching's of someone hundreds of years ago, when if they were preaching the same information now, we would soon have recommending the person under the mental health team

Good point!

KnowThatIKnowNot · 21/12/2024 22:53

Feelingathomenow · 21/12/2024 07:00

If you refuse to read the Bible how can you discuss Christianity? What are you actually discussing? Where on earth have you got the idea that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit? He is an archangel. Christianity has built up over millenia, integrating peoples direct experiences of God and studies. The concept of sola scriptura is not universal in Christianity. What sort of “proof” are you talking about? Can you give an example from another religion as you clearly don’t know anything about Christianity except through the distorted lens of other competing religions. If you refuse to read the Bible what “sciptures” are you talking about when you say “my understanding from the scriptures”? Clearly not the Bible ( or indeed any Christian gospel).

Any news on you “prominent Jewish scholars” I (and, I’m sure several real Jewish scholars) are keen to hear you back up your spurious claims about Jewish beliefs.

In reality you can’t discuss any religions seriously you can clearly only discuss one religion’s view of other religions.

Read any Bible, then research into the ancient Greek language and read it in that. Look at the published fragments and their reconstructions of texts which have been located eg the nag hamadi library. Study hermeneutics.

So what do you believe in that can do all the things you want?

Quite frankly, you clearly have absolutely zero knowledge about Christianity and the history and structure of it. Yo have a debate about it you need some level of actual knowledge rather than made up propaganda. Yet you clearly aren’t interested in learning actual facts, you just want to repeat all the lies and misinformation you have acquired. Please do tell us where you learned your incorrect versions of Judaism and Christianity from? (We can guess due to the nature of the lies and misinformation but kern to see you confirm it).

@Feelingathomenow, It is disappointing to see you falsely accuse me of something I did not say or write.

Kindly, for avoidance of any doubts for myself and other readers can you please quote what I have knowingly posted as false or lies without any caveats?

And why does it matter to you that much of what my beliefs or none are for this discussion? I failed see how that would effect our discussion about Jesus being son of God and God simultaneously? I know it sounds crazy and delusional but that's your belief and I respect that.

And as I repeat myself again, why would Jesus be anymore special than Adam, when he was created without a mother and a father?

It's a simple question that any reasonable person will want to know the answer to before they can decide to put their faith Jesus and not Adam?

I don't have any issues in telling you what my personal beliefs are but why should that cloud your discussion.

I believe in fairies.

AlteredStater · 22/12/2024 07:23

And as I repeat myself again, why would Jesus be anymore special than Adam, when he was created without a mother and a father?

Of course Adam was special, being the first man created - but he was 100% human, he had no divinity. Jesus on the other hand was 100% human and 100% God.

Feelingathomenow · 22/12/2024 07:55

KnowThatIKnowNot · 21/12/2024 22:53

@Feelingathomenow, It is disappointing to see you falsely accuse me of something I did not say or write.

Kindly, for avoidance of any doubts for myself and other readers can you please quote what I have knowingly posted as false or lies without any caveats?

And why does it matter to you that much of what my beliefs or none are for this discussion? I failed see how that would effect our discussion about Jesus being son of God and God simultaneously? I know it sounds crazy and delusional but that's your belief and I respect that.

And as I repeat myself again, why would Jesus be anymore special than Adam, when he was created without a mother and a father?

It's a simple question that any reasonable person will want to know the answer to before they can decide to put their faith Jesus and not Adam?

I don't have any issues in telling you what my personal beliefs are but why should that cloud your discussion.

I believe in fairies.

Edited

“Kindly, for avoidance of any doubts for myself and other readers can you please quote what I have knowingly posted as false or lies without any caveats?”

Gladly, because I have asked 3 times now and would truely like an answer. You said right at the beginning that Jews consider Ezra to be the son of God. I said this was incorrect. You said that you couldn’t belief o didn’t know this and should look up the many prominent Jewish scholars who said this. Despite asking several times you still haven’t been able to tell me who these prominent Jewish scholars are. We could discuss other points once you clarify this first one.

in Christian belief Adam was made from clay, he fell from grace by sinning against God. Jesus was God and cured the wound in the relationship between God and man. Surely it’s not that hard? Jesus is me important because he is God. So a simple question with a simple answer.

i add Lao believe in the land of the fae so at least we have that in common.

Feelingathomenow · 22/12/2024 08:02

Feelingathomenow · 22/12/2024 07:55

“Kindly, for avoidance of any doubts for myself and other readers can you please quote what I have knowingly posted as false or lies without any caveats?”

Gladly, because I have asked 3 times now and would truely like an answer. You said right at the beginning that Jews consider Ezra to be the son of God. I said this was incorrect. You said that you couldn’t belief o didn’t know this and should look up the many prominent Jewish scholars who said this. Despite asking several times you still haven’t been able to tell me who these prominent Jewish scholars are. We could discuss other points once you clarify this first one.

in Christian belief Adam was made from clay, he fell from grace by sinning against God. Jesus was God and cured the wound in the relationship between God and man. Surely it’s not that hard? Jesus is me important because he is God. So a simple question with a simple answer.

i add Lao believe in the land of the fae so at least we have that in common.

I also believe…. I’m not adding Lao to anything!!!

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