Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

@professorcunning

Any anthropologists reading this is weeping in dismay.

Elaborate please or any point you are alluding to is worthless.

I’ve already explained what don’t you understand?

So why are so many animals solitary?

social interaction takes a lot of energy. Without having to interact we could have smaller brains

The most interesting thing here is you trying to persuade your opinion is correct with religious zealotry 😂

So why are so many animals solitary?

As I said earlier, evolutionary mechanisms do not, except perhaps in certain rare circumstances, select for what is beneficial to the species.
They select for what is beneficial to individuals.
And there are many environmental circumstances where it is beneficial to the individual to be solitary.
And because evolutionary mechanisms are also divergent, and have a tendency to, over time, fill all viable niches, so long as some circumstances exist in which being solitary is an advantage to the individual, solitary species will evolve.

And that is why some species have evolved to life in groups (including humans) and other species live alone.

I think this is getting a bit bogged down.

The two main points for me are:
1 - Evolutionary psychology doesn't encompass or explain all of our moral values. Disabled people would not have any protections if that were the case.
2 - Physical instincts for survival and perpetuating the species do not equate with 'purpose'.

Evolutionary psychology doesn't encompass or explain all of our moral values. Disabled people would not have any protections if that were the case.

As a society it makes sense to look after the vulnerable and disabled because it could affect us too. Most of us would like to live in a society where we can feel safe, regardless of our condition. So that is why protecting disabled people IS in everyone's self interest.

Physical instincts for survival and perpetuating the species do not equate with 'purpose'.

I have never suggested that there is a 'purpose'. Through evolution human life, like any other species, aims to survive, reproduce, and pass on genetic material to the next generation. Why are you assuming that there's a 'purpose' to our or our cat's lives?

For me the "purpose" is to try to leave the world a little better than it was when I came into it. That's it. I don't think any other purpose is necessary.

And there is a difference between evolution, which makes species better adapted to their environment and which in broad terms has no place for "substandard" genes and society, which does, because helping other people means we get helped, and also that a nice society is nicer to live in.

But all of your answers are just ideologically based, it’s just guessing. What “makes sense” is always predicated on an ideology. Things “make sense” only insofar as they fit within a preordained framework.

it’s disappointing you can’t recognise this.

The question is "Why (or why not) be Christian" - well, I can only speak of my own experience. I was brought up a Christian, and I continued as a practising Christian into my 30's and early 40's. In fact, I had quite a dramatic experience when I was 20, when I became ill and I cried out to God in fear and desperation, and (after several months) events fell into place and I experienced a very dramatic turnaround which I think of as God stepping in and healing me. (Although I admit, as others have said earlier in this thread, that what I experienced could, theoretically, be thought of as 'coincidence', or 'mind over matter' - there is no way to scientifically PROVE that it was God, but let's just say it was good enough for ME to start believing in Christ). Anyway, even though I had this dramatic 'stuff' happen to me, of course life is never that simple. I always dreamt of getting married and having a family, but as much as I tried, it just never happened and I gradually became very bitter and angry with God, for dealing me this hand of cards. From approx 2005 or so, I sort of gradually stepped away from faith and from the church, and I became very angry with God for leaving me single and alone (although I never actually stopped believing in Him, I just was in a very bad mood with Him). I was so angry, but deep inside I knew I was acting wrong and that this attitude was getting me nowhere and just making me more and more unhappy as the months/years went by.
I remember it was just before lockdown started, about this time 4 years ago, I got to the point of no return (so to speak) and I got on my knees and tearfully prayed "God, you win, you are right and I have been wrong. I will accept being single if that's what you want for me. Please forgive me my awful, hateful attitude towards you and allow me a fresh start and I'll try to live my life your way" (or words to that effect).
Up until that point, the worst thing about my life was that I felt like I was just drifting aimlessly in a void, or a thick fog. There was no sense of journey, time seemed to be just wasting away. But since then, it's as if God has lifted me up and placed me on a sort of conveyor belt which is moving slowly towards Him. Step by step, little by little, I feel as if I'm now on a purposeful journey in the right direction. And because of my time away from faith, I realise how important it is to keep hanging in there, even when it doesn't FEEL right. For example, right now it seems like my health is deteriorating. I'm losing my hearing (in fact I might start a thread on that, as I want to see if anyone else has the same symptoms), I'm having IBS-type symptoms, etc etc. And I'm thinking back to when I was 20 and I experienced an 'intervention' (some might say a 'healing' in answer to prayer) and yet now, after much praying I don't YET seem to be experiencing any answer or turn-around in my situation. So let's not lie or paint a false picture: prayers don't always get answered, at least not immediately, and it leaves me questioning whether this whole experience is 'real' or merely 'in my mind'. Yet somehow this time, I'm choosing to hold on to faith in Christ, as I've seen what it's like when I choose to disregard him and turn away.
So to sum it up, being a Christian is not always easy, and life still throws stuff at you and you have to hang on, and there are times when you think God, Where are youuuu!!! Why are you not answering me? Aaargh!! Is this all a delusion? Am I kidding myself? But I think I have enough internal evidence to convince me that faith is a positive and true choice.

@OnSecondThoughts - sounds an unpleasant process - is it really making you happy?

Parker231 - Yes, I agree all this stuff in my life has not always been a pleasant process, but a lot of that was my own doing, my own choice.
Is it making me happy? - I think I'm happier now than what I was 5 year ago. But part of the Christian faith is all about shifting the whole emphasis away from being about ME feeling happy, and instead making it about serving and helping others to be happy. Being honest, right now I'm feeling a bit anxious and unsettled (mainly about my health, as I said, I'm not enjoying losing my hearing and various tummy troubles). However, there's a kind of deeper thing going on inside me. I'm becoming convinced that God is somehow doing the best thing for me in the long run, even though I am not enjoying the process! There's a bit in the Bible where it says we can be assured of sharing in Christ's glory (in eternity) if we also share in His sufferings (in this earthly life). Somehow, the infirmities and pains we go through here, are a sharing in what Jesus went through when he was crucified. I know that sounds crazy and I don't understand what it means, but I make a choice to believe it.

Part of being a decent human being is trying to help others - you don’t need a faith for that?

the Christian faith is all about shifting the whole emphasis away from being about ME feeling happy, and instead making it about serving and helping others to be happy (@OnSecondThoughts)

It is much easier to help others be happy if YOU are happy yourself. So there is nothing wrong with focusing on YOUR happiness. Helping others is part of being human so of course you will want to help others too.

As a previous poster said, you do not need any gods to do any of this, and I too find your experience quite stressful. I hope your health and happiness improves.

How does that fit into the selfish gene theory everyone has been talking about?

Or do you think it’s important to help others because there’s something bigger than you?

The talk about “happiness” is interesting. What is happiness and is this something you should aim to be all the time?

I don’t think most people are selfish and nor do I believe they is any god/bigger think.

@OnSecondThoughts I have prayed for you. You might find the scriptures on this thread helpful to keep in mind.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/philosophyreligionn_spirituality/5007064-can-you-recommend-me-pieces-of-scripture-to-read-when-you-are-depressed-please

Interesting. So what do you think about @Lalupalina arguments about how we have evolved? That we are selfish?

Surely if we have evolved to think that there is something bigger than us, which as I previously stated could be society, freedom, stability, the planet, love, a God that would indicate we have capacity to recognise we are part of something bigger.

@Kdtym10 Just checking- are you reading people's answers to your questions?

I think an issue is that exactly the same behaviour could be a result of both selfish and altruistic motivations. The same characteristics can be used towards selfish or altruistic ends.

For example, if someone has the predisposition of tenacity they could use this to continue in a course of action, in the face of opposition, which either serves themselves or the greater good. Their motivations could either be self serving or the greater good. And sometimes what a person actively desires themselves is for the greater good of everyone and everything so the aims of self and the greater good are unified.

As I posted, I don’t think most people are selfish. The human race has evolved- we don’t live in caves, antibiotics and other medical treatments have enabled us to live longer, women have greater equality (although improvements needed) etc but I don’t believe this has anything to do with any god.

The human race has evolved- we don’t live in caves, antibiotics and other medical treatments have enabled us to live longer, women have greater equality (although improvements needed) etc but I don’t believe this has anything to do with any god.

@Parker231, why do you think these are things God wouldn't want (assuming you believed in Him)? I'm a Christian and I don't think any of these things are bad.

I was responding to the previous posters comment about god - as you’re aware, I don’t believe in the existence of any god so he had no part to play in our evolution.

as you’re aware, I don’t believe in the existence of any god so he had no part to play in our evolution.

@Parker231, according to yourself then (in the situation of an absence of belief in God.)

Yes - I’m very comfortable with my beliefs as an atheist.

Yes - I’m very comfortable with my beliefs as an atheist

@Parker231, pretty complex that. Whilst you believe most people are unselfish, your beliefs about our existence are centred upon your own personal belief. Primarily from entirely your own personal perspective. In that you don't believe in anything greater than yourself, you don't defer your judgement to any greater force.