Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

You clearly haven’t read the thread.

I think the point clearly illustrates what I was saying about people needing something bigger than themselves.

No, living organisms (including humans) do not need something bigger than themselves. Why are you always suggesting this? Is it to justify your belief in a god?

It sounds like you’re performing mental gymnastics in order to fit complex points into a one dimensional ideology

@Kdtym10 I thou explained that very clearly? What part are you struggling with?

I'll repost my comment here:

^The selfish genes along with reciprocal altruism and various forms of signalling like dominance signalling, sexual signalling and virtue signalling provide a very comprehensive explanation of moral or moral-like behaviors of humans and other animals. Being moral is very much an outcome of our evolution.

Morality therefore fits the survival needs of intelligent social animals very nicely. Which is more likely to be a successful species: a tribe of animals that looks after the well-being of its members or one that doesn’t?^

*thought

I’m not struggling with anything, you’re struggling to fully express the concepts you’re clinging to.

How are those things a “comprehensive explanation”? Is altruism always reciprocal? If we are built to be selfish, surely we would have evolved to live as solitary animals (plenty of species thrive as solitary animals) why would we have evolved as essentially herd animals? Looks like evolution failed on that!

@Lalupalina

The selfish genes along with reciprocal altruism and various forms of signalling like dominance signalling, sexual signalling and virtue signalling provide a very comprehensive explanation of moral or moral-like behaviors of humans and other animals. Being moral is very much an outcome of our evolution.

Morality therefore fits the survival needs of intelligent social animals very nicely. Which is more likely to be a successful species: a tribe of animals that looks after the well-being of its members or one that doesn’t?

Yet you've not replied to the points I made in my earlier post here:

The limitations of this is it is what is in 'our best interests', so it comes entirely from the perspective of being human, not from the perspective of what is best for the whole of creation. Evolution is also historic, based on what has gone before rather than being based on the present, looking into the future which assumes nothing new will happen.

Which simply put is that human evolutionary adaptations are a set of narrow adaptations from the perspective of a particular set of human beings in a series of past contexts. They don't take into account the whole of creation or contexts that haven't happened to the particular line of humans. It's not necessarily relevant to present or future circumstances. An example would be a population that has developed fair skin due to their environment having a lack of sunlight suddenly having to move overseas where the sunlight is much stronger. Evolution is also slow, it happens over many lifetimes as is human knowledge. Human knowledge takes lifetimes to fully understand what has passed.

@NotSoBetty

But it’s not just the fear of going to hell, that will motivate people to behave in a morally sound way, it’s the wanting to please this god and end up in heaven for all blissful eternity.

You are ignoring the benefits Christians feel their faith in God through Christ can have in this life, here on earth. Put simply we believe as the Eternal Creator, God knows best, He has infinite knowledge concerning whatever situation we find ourselves in. Having a relationship with Him where He gives us insight and revelation is a good thing in the here and now!

@NotSoBetty my previous post is based on the idea put forward in this piece of scripture:

"2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." (Colossians 2:2-4)

I’m not struggling with anything, you’re struggling to fully express the concepts you’re clinging to.

I'm not 'clinging' to any concept.

How are those things a “comprehensive explanation”? Is altruism always reciprocal? If we are built to be selfish, surely we would have evolved to live as solitary animals (plenty of species thrive as solitary animals) why would we have evolved as essentially herd animals? Looks like evolution failed on that!

There are huge benefits to living in a group - there is safety in numbers and all members ultimately benefit. So humans, like many other animals, are herd animals. We survive much better in highly coordinated groups!

@heyhohello You make the point that evolution is slow. Yes, that's true. But that's just how it is unfortunately.

I'm not sure how that argument affects your belief in a god?

@Lalupalina,

I'm not sure how that argument affects your belief in a god?

Because I believe God is eternal and all knowing, I believe He is not slow but timely when He gives us his revelation and insights.

Jesus gives an indication of how God moves and how this can appear here:

"3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]" (John 3: 1-8)

To me this illustrates the sheer complexity and unpredictability of God, of life, from a human observer's point of view in the absence of direct revelation from Him. But also how someone has to be 'reborn' from their narrow human perspective and human limitations (genetics/environment) in order to begin to appreciate God/life itself.

@Lalupalina

And regarding evolution, I view our genetic predispositions as meta stable. A series of genetic switches which can be turned on and off given the right circumstances. Circumstances not only includes our environment but our reactions to it. This can happen much quicker than evolution IMO which is studied on a population/data set level and is observable over several generations. However, even individually of the switches get stiff from lack of use is my feeling upon the matter. Insight from God I believe can lead us into reacting to our environments appropriately, as He would have us do. An example would be how people can improve 'fat adaptation' through exercising at a MAF (Maximum Aerobic Function) in order to increase the body' effect at burning stored body fat for fuel.

@Lalupalina an example of improving a meta stable disposition where the body does not readily utilise body fat for fuel, that is. (I'm not claiming this is necessarily a revelation from God appropriate to everyone's lifestyle ! 😉)

@Lalupalina that should read 'body's efficiency' not 'body' effect' in last but one post.

@heyhohello I am trying hard to understand your points but I struggle.

There is simply no need for any god in the process of evolution. It is really that simple.

Also, if you understand the evolution of life on earth you will clearly see that the Bible stories cannot be true.

@Lalupalina I'm not primarily talking about evolution, I'm talking about epigenetic gene adaptation too. The latter works in well with how inheritance operates in The Bible. And yes, there are much unanswered questions but The Bible, like life itself, is incredibly complex with layers of upon layers of meaning.

@Lalupalina

This piece of scripture, for example,

"5....visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:5)

seems very pertinent in terms of how epigenetic alterations in gene expression have been observed.

But why? If we are so selfish surely that lends itself to solitary living like many species who survive perfectly well. Surely if we are hardwired to only ultimately care about ourselves it’s a waste of energy having to look after anyone else? Or could it be there’s something beyond selfish desires?

If we are so selfish surely that lends itself to solitary living like many species who survive perfectly well. Surely if we are hardwired to only ultimately care about ourselves it’s a waste of energy having to look after anyone else?

Not at all! There are huge benefits to living in a group - there is safety in numbers and all members ultimately benefit. So humans, like many other animals, are herd animals. We survive much better in a group!

Can you not see that? We would really struggle to live by ourselves! It is clearly in our interest to live in communities where all members ultimately benefit, just like all the other herd animals!

I can see the advantages if we viewed the herd as more important than ourselves - the common trait amongst herd animals

if purely selfish not valuing something greater than us - much less energy to be alone - like many animals

your theory just doesn’t stack up to me, can’t you see that?

I think it's a bit of a misnomer anyway. Genes are not selfish or altruistic. Possessing a hardwired biological urge for survival of our genes is not necessarily selfish, altruistic or unbiblical for that matter.

Except I think hardwired might be the wrong terminology...as I think we can overcome our genetic predispositions.

No, it is in our (selfish) best interest to live in a group, because species that form groups through social interaction will result in a group of individuals that gain an evolutionary advantage, such as increased protection against predators, access to potential mates, increased foraging efficiency and the access to social information.

Can you not see that it is in our self interest?

It doesn't require 'much less energy to be alone' but much MORE energy. It would simply be a much harder life and therefore not in our selfish self interest.

What about this does 'not stack up' in your view??

Interesting area of consideration, though, thinking about topics such as priests not marrying or having children and martyrdom.

Any anthropologists reading this is weeping in dismay.