Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

The Bible contains multiple books. Some (like the Gospels) are absolutely intended to be read literally! Others aren't.

I’m not so sure, but we obviously hold different opinions

Hi @IloveGogglebox !

How do we know God loves us? Well, through faith ultimately. But it helps that He's told us this many times in the Bible. 😊

It's great that you've found a church community. It does sound as if they might be a bit pushy about evangelising, which I would also be uncomfortable with. Just be aware and careful about any controlling tendencies - some churches can be quite demanding and I don't think that is appropriate.

Just to reassure you that not all churches are like this and if something feels a bit 'off', trust your instincts. I hate to say this as being more 'charismatic' or 'evangelical' doesn't necessarily connote anything sinister and I don't want to put you off all the good things you've found! Just a word of caution as ultimately churches are full of imperfect people, and you should be able to attend and be part of things without being pressurised.

Questions are not bad, and often we need more than just "have faith" as an answer. If you find you're not getting real answers, keep looking elsewhere! There are some very wise vicars in the C of E who are always (in my experience) welcoming, thoughtful and open to questions.

I did give an answer of sorts to the 'who created God' question upthread but ultimately this is one of the big mysteries. However even if you were to take God out of the equation, the existence of the universe would still be pretty unfathomable. It's fascinating to ponder, anyway.

"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." (from Luke Chapter 1)

It's not that cryptic...

@Mustardseed86 thank you!
I will keep asking lol

I’ve only just noticed the change in title to this thread compared with the earlier ones,

I think it would be useful to describe what people think being Christian is to them. I know we’ve touched on it before, but maybe it’s worthy of exploring more fully.

You see I read that in a very different way to what you read it. - so to you, who was Luke?

We don't know for sure, but early sources say he was a doctor and a companion of Paul. He is also identified as the author of Acts.

From Wikipedia en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist

Based on his accurate description of towns, cities and islands, as well as correctly naming various official titles, archaeologist William Mitchell Ramsay wrote that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy. …[He] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." Professor of Classics at Auckland University, Edward Musgrave Blaiklock, wrote: "For accuracy of detail, and for evocation of atmosphere, Luke stands, in fact, with Thucydides. The Acts of the Apostles is not shoddy product of pious imagining, but a trustworthy record. …It was the spadework of archaeology which first revealed the truth." New Testament scholar Colin Hemer has made a number of advancements in understanding the historical nature and accuracy of Luke's writings.

My beliefs are pretty standard Christianity really.

The Apostles' Creed sums it up:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

Am 100% atheist (as are family across several countries) - see no reason to be anything different.

Do you believe all that literally?

I can think of 2 good reasons not to be a Christian:

1. There is absolutely no evidence that any of it is true

2. The god of the bible is a nasty, morally bankrupt, genocidal maniac

Those of you who are Christian, were you brought up to believe in God?

I imagine if you'd grown up in another culture you might believe another Faith or no God at all?

I wonder how much our upbringing has influenced our beliefs?

The Bible is a series of stories and myths - how true, we’ll never know. Quoting the Bible doesn’t mean it’s a fact or true - religion is a faith and not a science.

Yes

Quoting the Bible doesn’t mean it’s a fact or true - religion is a faith and not a science.

@Parker231, I quote the Bible when taking about my faith by way of explanation and to illustrate what I am saying/believe in terms of how true it is according to the Christian faith.

@Parker231 and I think my faith means I mean I am not obsessed with scientific fact. I observe it, yes, but recognise how much we don't and can't know (except by faith). And I am happy to talk about the portion of life that is unexplained and unexplored and unexplainable by science. In fact scientific fact can make me feel constricted, like a statistic, a number. Because there are always exceptions to the rule and this is a good job in my case as my very survival is against the statistical odds (survivor of Stage 3 cancer).

Sort of - we never went to church but I suppose it was mentioned in school in assembly and things like that.

I requested to be Christened at age 11 - my parents felt it should be my choice and really it's not something that ever came up, as a family. But it's somehow always been important to me, something drew me towards faith I suppose. Although I've been very unimpressive in my adherence to Christian virtues in some ways!

I think in another culture it might depend on the level of pressure to remain within the tradition one is born in (in some places, leaving is really not tolerated), and also the level of access to information. It's definitely possible, but if I knew what I actually do know (IYSWIM), then I would still be a Christian. In a pluralistic and pretty secular society like this one, I definitely don't feel I was indoctrinated in childhood or anything like that.

I don't consider myself religious but I do believe there is some underlying order or organisation to the universe.

And I believe that there have been beings on the Earth in the past that were from "elsewhere", that they influenced us and we regarded them as Gods.

I agree, religion is not a science. But there are a few fields of study like history, anthropology, literature and theology where it's studied academically. You might find out there are some surprisingly good answers at that level.

Interesting!

I suspect 'miracles' have always happened and do still happen. I also suspect the vast, vast majority of them are down to Conversion Disorder.

In terms of understanding the spiritual realm, I believe that alongside the laws of nature that we have come to understand through science and experimentation, there are many others that we simply do not (yet) have the ability to access and analyse. Go back 500 years and the internal combustion engine will look like magic. Many of the things we currently ascribe to the power of the spiritual are most likely due to natural laws we haven't grasped yet.

What we do with that is the question. Some people of faith make that leap and it enhances their lives. Some people of faith make that leap and build horrific power structures that they use to oppress others. Some people choose to accept that they don't know and probably will never know. No one way is superior to any of the others.

As long as we have a society governed by a framework of law and rules that are just, sensible and open to adjustment as we learn more, it doesn't really matter where those rules come from. If you look at the guiding principles of major religions, they tend to have a great deal in common. They also have a great deal in common with the kinds of things secular groups put in place, which makes sense because having laws and rules protects humans from their own baser impulses - it's about survival of the species in the end.

Ultimately, militant atheists need to stop talking about 'sky fairies' and replacing their lack of faith with things like cults of party and personality (looking at China and North Korea as examples of this) and religious people need to stop imposing their rules on people who don't share their faith - especially when it comes to the treatment of all things sex, all things gay and all things relating to the equality and self-determination of women.

I wanted to believe in God, I really did but we have had the worst few years and when I’ve prayed, begged even, for God to help in my absolute most desperate of times, “he” hasn’t, quite the opposite in fact.

So I have had to conclude that there either is no God or he wants to punish us for some reason.

I can’t stand it that people give all the credit to God when good things happen but when bad things happen it’s “God’s plan” and we should just trust that he knows what’s best for us. That feels exactly like being in an abusive relationship to me.

The final straw for me was attending a funeral of someone who died too young of motor neurone disease where the vicar said (and I’m paraphrasing but not exaggerating), “I know it’s very sad that X died of such an awful disease but it’s not God’s fault.” He did actually say the words, “it’s not God’s fault”.

If he isn’t responsible for the bad things that happen, he sure as hell isn’t taking credit for the good things and I’m not blindly following someone so hateful just because the bible tells me to do so.

Where is the evidence for this?

I have experienced a miracle myself. There is no way to explain it other than God. I won't post about it as its too identifying but I have also seen other miracles happen myself. The problem is that no one will believe me!

One recent example (although i didnt experience this one myself) is that a friend from my church went to volunteer at a school in Africa. The headmaster was a Muslim and had been blind in one eye for 30 years. She heard God telling her to pray for healing in his eye which really scared her as he was a fierce character and she thought she would be in big trouble as a Christian asking to pray for a Muslim.

She got up the courage and prayed for healing for the headmaster and nothing happened. Then the next day she went to the school to find him praying on his knees at the front of the school. His eye had been completely healed during the night and he could see again. He converted to Christianity, as did everyone in his family and his village.

As I said. The problem is that non-Christians will say either she's making it up, I'm making it up or he was making it up. It's a tiny village. There are no newspaper articles about it. There's just a tiny village in Africa full of Christians who can testify to it. That won't persuade most people!