Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

In my (personal) opinion people can vote for whatever they want. We live in a democracy.

I look after and love friends and family and act with good morals which benefits everyone.

i have already said this. Do you not have good people around you who aren’t selfish and have good morals? You seem to have a very negative outlook.

Yes, I think this is a good point. There’s a book “the highly sensitive child” where it talks about the make up of deer herds. Some are confident about moving into new territories - important for finding new pasture, some are more reluctant to embrace change so hold back. Important for if the grass is growing on marsh lands that will drag the deer down to its death.

Interesting that modern society is trying limit diversity, drugging it out of people, excluding them from work places in pursuit of the twin gods of productivity and profit!

So humans lack the adaptability to respond to pressing needs which might result in the destruction of the entire species? Doesn’t sound like evolution is very useful on the survival front.

Evolution is not perfect but as a species we can only do our best to adapt and survive. However, it may well be that one day we will die out - perhaps as a result of a meteorite, a deadly virus or another disaster. Yes, sadly that may happen.

MP’s should vote in the best interests of their constituents and not their own personal opinion.

Oh no I have lovely people round me who love me very much thanks. I was actually told the other day in my work appraisal how I really bring an amazing air of positivity and optimism into the work place.

But you seem to be rapidly failing into the void of ad hominem arguments which is disappointing! Therefore it’s probably best to end it here and agree you do think those things are greater than self, otherwise you can only be acting selfishly.

The positive, optimistic me thinks we all act for the greater good which often involves acting a completely unselfish manner often involving self sacrifice (which is a positive thing for humanity)

But you seem to be rapidly failing into the void of ad hominem arguments which is disappointing! Therefore it’s probably best to end it here and agree you do think those things are greater than self, otherwise you can only be acting selfishly.

The two are NOT mutually exclusive!

You can act selfishly AND be positive, loving, helpful to others. By looking after your own happiness you can be part of a loving family and community! It's a win win situation!

And no, there is no need for anything 'bigger'

@Kdtym10 I actually find your responses disappointing as you are continually implying that those of us that don't believe in any god are unkind and unhelpful and unloving..?!

As you have written me off as being selfish, feedback from a client this week centred around how sensitive I was to their needs and how diplomatically I handled a very difficult situation

Further evidence that selfishness is not a 'sin' or 'bad':

According to research, healthy selfishness can be related to higher levels of psychological wellbeing, developing skills necessary to deal with the demands placed on us by our environment in an effective way (adaptive functioning), as well as developing behaviour that genuinely is intended to help others (prosocial behaviour).
In contrast, those who mainly practised altruism were more likely to exhibit behaviours that stopped them from adapting to new or difficult circumstances (maladaptive psychological behaviours), vulnerable narcissism (a narcissist type that is highly self-conscious, insecure, and hypersensitive to rejection), and selfish motivations for helping others.

Jeezus wept, the muddled thinking has gone into overdrive overnight!

I'm out of here

Lol. Love the way you through me out comments to try and make yourself seem better than everyone else, don’t explain, then excuse yourself. I mean you would normally expect people to set things straight but if you aren’t able to do that, you’ve probably made the right decision for yourself

Not written you off as selfish at all, quite the contrary I think you realise that there is something bigger than self (but rather confusingly don’t want to seem to admit it) . This concern for something bigger than yourself probably means your feedback was well deserved- sounds like you’ve done an excellent job for a greater good. - fantasic!

Where have I said that? Please quote where I have said that.

But if someone is arguing they are not selfish because they love and care for others then that person is staying the two things are incompatible. I’m just repeating what they are saying. I don’t think your argument is with me on this point.

Ah so they haven’t got freedom of expression. Presumably, if the people who elected them knew of their religious beliefs they are happy for them to be expressed as part of their representation.

I think it was Thomas Aquinus who said for those that have faith no proof is required, for those who lack faith no proof is enough.
Says it all really.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/mps-voting-personal-or-constituency-preferences/

This concern for something bigger than yourself probably means your feedback was well deserved

@Kdtym10 Can you please stop implying that being helpful necessarily means 'that there is something bigger than yourself'

You can be a kind and helpful person WITHOUT the need for 'something bigger'

How?

But if someone is arguing they are not selfish because they love and care for others then that person is staying the two things are incompatible.

Ok, but it is my view that a healthy dose of selfishness is absolutely compatible with loving and caring for others. In particular, loving and caring for your offspring is a very selfish act! But also is it compatible with being kind and helpful to all other members of society, because we want to be treated the same way.

@Kdtym10 Can you please expand on your 'How' below? I don't know what part you need me to explain or expand on?

Right so an MP doesn’t have freedom of expression.

what do you think to our local MP who imposed his atheist views on a local church school? It became part of an academy and gave direct access to an outstanding top performing secondary school. He involved the humanist society, spent tax payers money with a legal challenge to remove any reference to Christianity in the admission criteria (plenty of other local primary schools).

Now the church has what is now essentially a de facto muslim school in its grounds it has to maintain, no locals can get into the school because near every house nearby has been acquired and let out to usually family members to cover the admissions period then they move on.

it’s taken choice and opportunity away from the wider community, no one outside this small group is getting into the school. All because of this MPs ideology. Should he be sacked? ,

But also is it compatible with being kind and helpful to all other members of society, because we want to be treated the same way.

@Lalupalina, very New Testament Biblical thinking that😉. I wonder what else that Jesus and did said you agree with...maybe you are more in agreement with Him, your thoughts are more Christian in origin than you realise.

Of course. The poster @Parker231 has stated they don’t believe they are selfish because they act in the interests of others out of love. Therefore, this would indicate that there are selfish needs and other, distinct drivers a - something bigger than themselves by definition as they claim not to be acting out of self interest..

As I said, your disagreement on this is not with me, it is with the statements of the aforementioned poster. Do, how would you address the distinction they draw?