Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

One thing we agree upon.👍😅

1 - I don’t believe in any gods or greater force
2- most people are good and not selfish
3- people can have good morals without being dictated to by a god
4- life is straight forward and easy when you don’t bring faith into - I suggest everyone tries it
5- I’m not confused by my statements or find them contradictory

@Lalupalina except environments are changeable overnight in some cases and evolution takes generations...

Or do you think it’s important to help others because there’s something bigger than you?

NO! There's nothing bigger than me.

Helping others is in one's own interest as we want you to live in a community where we all feel safe and looked after if we need help.

It is absolutely consistent with being 'selfish'

It seems that you both have difficulties in accepting that most people are good, love their family and friends, look after each other and lead useful lives . It works in my world - perhaps you should try it.

One thing we agree upon.👍😅

Yay @heyhohello

But we haven’t done that have we? We’ve tried to make our environment adapt to us and we are destroying it and ourselves in the process. I would say we stopped evolving tens of thousands of years ago and started on a road of destruction How is that good?

Sure, but that's just how it is. What's the issue with that?

@Lalupalina is that consistent with allowing Christian's freedom of thought/belief? As I'm sure you want to live in a society that allows freedom of thought.

@Lalupalina my last post in reply to what you said here:

Helping others is in one's own interest as we want you to live in a community where we all feel safe and looked after if we need help.

But we haven’t done that have we? We’ve tried to make our environment adapt to us and we are destroying it and ourselves in the process. I would say we stopped evolving tens of thousands of years ago and started on a road of destruction How is that good?

We are definitely still evolving and adapt as a species!

Humans still face challenges to survival and reproduction, just not the same ones that we did 20,000 years ago. The direction, but not the fact of our evolution has changed. For example, modern humans living in densely populated areas face greater risks of epidemic diseases than did our hunter-gatherer ancestors (who did not come into close contact with so many people on a daily basis) — and this situation favors the spread of gene versions that protect against these diseases. Scientists have uncovered many such cases of recent human evolution!
Maybe you should actually look at the evidence?!

Sorry I'm not sure I understand. What goes against Christian beliefs that I said?

Oh no, I’m not having difficulty with that at all? I do all of those things because I believe in something greater than me, friendship, family, society, humanity, the planet, the divine.

Yet you say you don’t believe in any of those things, ie something greater than you. So the only other option really is you’re acting in a selfish manner for selfish gains. Yet apparently you’re not doing that either. I’m just trying to get my head around how that works.

You say most people are good, yet good is self defined. So how do we know they’re good. My definition might be different to yours, so I might think a mass murderer is good or a charity aid worker is evil. So how can you make statements about how many people I find good or bad. Or are we all supposed to simultaneously come up with similar definitions out of no where?

@Lalupalina

Sure, but that's just how it is. What's the issue with that?

Changes can occur quicker (than natural selection) through changes in behaviour which lead to physiological changes. Behaviour is preceded by thought/belief.

We did a fantastic job in covid.

is that why sim many people living in cities get ill and suffer from pollution induced disease? Is that why mental health is so bad we’ve adapted to modern life so well? Interesting I’ll look up those facts.

But just because we continue to evolve and adapt as a species does not prevent us from changing our behaviours? I don't see any contradiction or issue?

Sorry I'm not sure I understand. What goes against Christian beliefs that I said?

@Lalupalina, so you'd agree you do allow Christians freedom of thought and belief. Good.👍

@heyhohello Where have I ever implied that people do not have freedom of thoughts and beliefs?? I'm a huge proponent of freedom of expression!

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your point. Can you expand?

So you would agree that say an MP who was Christian can express those values and vote accordingly?

@Kdtym10 Of course evolution and adaptations take a long time, and of course current problems cannot be eliminated instantly, and of course new problems will emerge - nobody is claiming that life as a human is 'easy'!

As I have explained (more than once) I’m not selfish in thoughts or actions - I look after and love friends and family and act with good morals which benefits everyone.
I don’t think that most people are selfish or bad - if you do, that’s something for you to deal with.

So humans lack the adaptability to respond to pressing needs which might result in the destruction of the entire species? Doesn’t sound like evolution is very useful on the survival front.

@Lalupalina so from an evolutionary perspective individuals with divergent characteristics should be protected. Since the environment changes more rapidly than evolution those divergent characteristics might be suddenly be the most well suited to the new environment. Since belief/thought drives behaviours which then in turn drive physiology it follows those with divergent perspectives should be protected.

Do you agree that there is something greater than self, in this case love, friends, family and society?