Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

I'm a Christian and I love what (very little) I know of paganism, in its celebration of the seasons turning, the equinoxes etc. I attend shamanic spiritual journeys - love all that stuff and see absolutely no clash in faith, just a deeper understanding. I even used to have a set of Christian-friendly Tarot cards but I gave them away.

I think haters want to hate and if they can find an outlet for their panic or anger and justify it as a message to act from God, then they don't have to take responsibility for their emotional states or actions arising from them.

I would view it through the lense of idolatry vs worshipping the one true God. Worshipping nature or the seasons, in my view, is to worship creation rather than the Creator, which is offensive to God. It would be like giving someone a meal and a warm bed, and the person thanking the food and the bedsheets but completely ignoring the person who gave it to you.
Also, I do not think paganism in the West is representative of the predominant forms of paganism across the world, which are fear-based belief systems. My friend works and lives in a community abroad where their religion is a form of paganism, and they live in tremendous fear of upsetting the spirits, ascribing every bad event to a spiritual force that is punishing them. It is not something that brings them joy or freedom.

Re worshipping creation vs the creator;

There are those among us who a Pantheists.

Everything is sacred in our opinion.

Well, I'm Christian in belief and faith and not Pagan. Faith is something that you have to choose in order to be genuine. So the choice is your's. I would always recommend my own faith because it is what I believe in. But I wouldn't go around protesting in the streets or shouting eternal judgment regarding anyone of another religion/belief system because, as I said faith, has to be chosen, it can't be forced, I believe in free will and it is not up to me to condemn individuals to Hell.

@Kdtym10 I would ask you the same question, what are your views on Christianity?

I see it as celebrating the creation and, by implication, the creator. Worshipping the creator is a separate and specific act of prayer and thanks and communion.

I am not a Christian, if anything I learn more towards pagan beliefs. However, I do not see how the two can be reconciled. If you are a true Christian then you follow the teachings of the Bible which eschews paganist rituals and beliefs and all things such as clairvoyancy for example. You say you know Christians who practice occult sciences and magic. I would say that these "Christians" are either kidding themselves or you. They are definitely not following the teachings of Christ which is, quite frankly, entry level Christianity! However, shouting at children through megaphones is not the way any good Christian (or decent human being) would behave so I think OP you witnessed a lunatic fringe. There's a lot of it about.

Well my views on Christianity are fairly complicated. I think the Bible is a great source of inspiration (well certain parts). I read it very symbolically rather than literally together with other gospels not in the Cannon.

Im a perenialist but the language of Christianity and Judaism is what I’m familiar with so often express my spirituality in those terms.

I don’t believe that Jesus was any more divine than anyone else but I believe we’re all divine. We just need to find the Christ within.

I have issues with the organised religion that is Christianity, but similar religions to varying extents with all organised religion. But people find their own path and I have no issues with whatever path people choose or are called to. I know Satanists, Christian’s, Jews, atheists, agnostics - I don’t tend to judge based on belief or lack thereof.

i Think it depends how you view Christianity and Christ. I’ve outlined my personal beliefs above. Many follow a Gnostic path.

it was really only in the 16th century magic and christianity were (at least on the face of it) separated - Keith Thomas’s book Religion and the Decline of magic is a good summary of the position, of of course esoteric Christianity went rather underground for a while eg Rosicrucianism but came back round in the 19th century arguable starting with Levi.

The Bible forbids occult practices and clairvoyancy. I have never met a Christian who would be comfortable with such things, and honestly I struggle to understand how you can both proclaim Jesus as Lord and Saviour (i.e. be a Christian), and purposefully do things that are against His Word. If you love the Lord Jesus, you wouldn't do things that you know he hates.

St Francis of Assisi was a big fan of all creation - referring to 'Brother Sun', 'Sister Moon', Brother fire' and 'Sister water'. Christians do give thanks for all creation and what the earth provides, but I guess the difference from paganism might be that that thanksgiving is directed towards a creator, rather than the thing itself - if that makes sense.
Many parts of (cultural) Christmas have been appropriated from pagan festivals, so I'm not sure Christians can get too hung up about that, to be honest.
Witchcraft and the occult however, I think is a bit more iffy, and personally I wouldn't get involved in that.

And Christianity is never fear based?

Where does Jesus say don't be curious about the strange nature of the world we live in? The realms of the soul? I'm not worshipping. I'm just interested.
Who decided he hates these things and when?

Agree completely. I'm a Catholic and wouldn't dream of practicing, celebrating or believing in anything that goes against the teachings of the bible and the church.

On the other hand, I'm just too busy with my own life and have neither the time nor the inclination to tell people they're going to hell. Doing that actually goes against Jesus teachings, "Him without sin cast the first stone" etc, etc

Telling children they're going to hell is vile.

Actually most scholars now agree (although without absolute consensus) that the bible and the Jewish Tanakh were talking about none Jewish/Christian practices.

eg if you look at Joseph and Daniel’s dream interpretation (basically both telling the same story) it’s clear clairvoyance/divination etc are fine so long as it’s with Gods approval (both stories tell of the failed attempts of non Hebrew magi etc).

Really this division is arguably more to do with the Reformation and a distancing from ritualistic Catholicism.

So it’s the purpose rather than practice that’s the issue.

Yep!

Can I ask what you think is a “bit iffy” about witchcraft and the occult?

I don't think that the adults shouting threats at children could be described as Christians. It doesn't embody the values I'd associate with Christianity. Each to their own and respect that not everyone wants to hear about your faith. I've met some lovely people but the constant harping on about faith is very off putting. I just don't care, if they are nice people but there seems to be an air of superiority amongst some Christian people and other faiths too, this is a turn off.

Wasn't the story about king Saul (can't remember )going to see a clairvoyant or occultist, and something happened as a result, some kind of punishment like losing the war. So basically the lesson was that God doesn't look favourably on these things.
I am no longer a practicing Christian but I was brought up in a very strict Christian home, anything occult based, like Halloween or anything to do with mediums or spirits etc was forbidden, Christians are to be light not dark etc.
Can't reconcile it with the pagan festivals of Christmas and Easter but if my dad had a choice, we wouldn't have celebrated those either (it's where my mum put her foot down).
Even as a non Christian now, I don't see how these things could ever go hand in hand

But it's disgraceful that Christians are shouting threats, would Jesus do that??

My DF is a retired CofE vicar. He finds it fascinating, and is absolutely respectful of anyone else's beliefs. He (or my DM who is also a vicar) would certainly not behave in such an abhorrent manner, he's far more likely to invite folks in for a cup of tea and a theological discussion (seriously, the Jehovah's witnesses took him off the list for it! 😂).

Certain types of paganism were around before Christianity and they mirror Christian beliefs fairly closely. The official excuse is that the Devil went back in time and created a “diabolical mimicry” of the birth of Jesus, before the actual birth of Jesus happened, in order to make Christianity look bad and confuse people. Religion is all a load of bollocks!

This. I’m now a Christian, but I was brought up in a family who were heavily into the occult/witch craft and I grew up reading the satanic bible.

without being too outing, I come from an incredibly rich and high profile family and unfortunately this “status” is often linked with the occult, which was the case for us.

I have seen and experienced a lot of really dark and awful things because of this. The occult/witch craft if really not something that I would ever dabble in again.

It was a really scary experience that actually pushed me to start to investigate what Christianity was and it’s only in the past few years I have considered myself a Christian (I have alot to learn still).

anyone who is a Christian and also practices anything occult isn’t a Christian.

i wouldn’t ever preach my religion and I keep it private unless asked. I think it’s a very personal decision in some cases although I talk about it if directly asked.

in any religion your going to get “extremists” who take things too far or too out of context but I don’t think religion should be forced upon people

When you say occult teachings/witchcraft and the Satanic bible there seems to be a bit of a mix of things going on. Are you saying your family were La veyan Satanists? Chaos magicians? It’s sounds quite left hand path. There’s many varied occult practices. You seem to be describing a bit of a confused practice.

Are you referring to the witch of Endor who prophesied the death of Saul and his 3 sons?

Theres many interpretations of this. A lot of the negative ones arise from King James’s Demonologie.