Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

I guess from my personal practice, I would agree with all of that. Except I wouldn’t read that only Jesus is Christ. We’re all capable of being the anointed one.

So why do Christian’s practice rituals

@Kdtym10
I believe that it helps focus the body and mind in worship. Rituals are very experiential and evoke memory and connect us together, surpassing time and place.

@Kdtym10 I believe we can be in Christ and He can be in us if we choose Him. In unity the boundaries become blurred.

Sounds the same as all the occult practices I know then

I guess the difference here is i don’t see Christ as a he.

I'm a Christian and I steer very far away from anything occultic. I was involved in the occult for years and came to understand that it is not compatible with Christianity, unless you just see Jesus as an inspirational leader or ascended master. I don't, I see him as the son of God, made human who suffered a gruesome death so I can go to Heaven when I die. That is the crux of Christianity, not being a nice person or helping other, although that is an overflow of it.

Jesus, was completely submissive to God the Father. That God was the same God of the Old Testaments, which he frequently quoted. Divination and witchcraft are forbidden in the Pld Testament. In the Bible, Jesus described himself as 'the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except through me'. Any means of manipulating spiritual energy outside of God, or worshipping a creation are not allowed.

Spirituality and nature are incredibly fascinating, and I was deeply involved in occultism and New Age practises for many years. I had a very unnerving experience 10 years ago and realised it was not what it appeared to be, and as such, I ended up becoming a Christian in my 30s.

I don't judge people, as I was in it, and still have friends who are involved in it. I think it is spiritually dangerous, at worst, and distracting at best.

This is a very short, inarticulate and very short version on my views and experiences but I have a headache and am very tired but wanted to reply before I went to bed.

Hope it made sense! I tried to condense a lot but my eyes are hurting!

@Kdtym10

Sounds the same as all the occult practices I know then

Yes, that's the mechanism of ritual but central to Christianity is the faith of Christianity, faith in Christ, who He is and what that means. Different denominations vary in the performance of ritual. It's the faith that makes these denominations Christian and not anything else.

I guess the difference here is i don’t see Christ as a he.

@Kdtym10, Christ's sex or gender is not something I focus on. I regard Him as God in the flesh.

So why all the extras? Why anything other than just faith? Surely the rest is pointless then? Surely there no need for organised religion if it’s just an internal faith?

So basically every person. God created msn in his own image. God made flesh

Also, I don't really see the relevance of the fact that for much of history Christianity and magic were conflated. I would say this was a straying away from scripture, and the Reformation brought back on track. The Reformation basically taught the sufficiency of scripture, and not to heed manmade traditions. I do not see medieval human additions to Christianity as being authoritative. Even first century traditions do not take precedence over scripture.

In the Bible, God tells us to adhere to certain things that help us hold fast to the faith, and showcase the gospel to the world.

We gather together as a Church to encourage each other, to hold each other accountable, and to be a visible representation of the body of Christ. Part of what God is doing is calling a redeemed people to himself, to be a light to the world. When we gather, we are a physical expression of this.

We eat the Lord's supper so that we keep referring back to the centrality of our faith, Jesus's death on the cross, and have an opportunity to confess our sin and be made right with God, and be reconciled to others.

We listen to sermons because God speaks to us through his Word, and we want to hear his Word taught and explained faithfully and clearly.

We are baptised because it is an image of how we are united with Christ in his death and resurrection.

So why all the extras? Why anything other than just faith? Surely the rest is pointless then? Surely there no need for organised religion if it’s just an internal faith?

@Kdtym10, I don't have all the answers myself. Certainly different churches differ in the practice of ritual. Faith is worked out. If you have faith it leads to action. But in terms of hierarchy I believe 'love' is (and should be) the most important within Christianity.

1 Corinthians 13
New International Version

"13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And love should connect us to all living people and things. Even if our faith is different and our rituals are different.

Thanks for sharing, I hope your headache heals soon.

I guess you have hit on a very important point. Who is Jesus? Yes I see him as an inspirational enlightened leader, I also see him as a child of God. But then I believe we are all the latter and all have the potential for enlightenment. Therefore we can all be Christ. I see the New testament as an alchemical allegory. One we can all live. It’s not the only iteration of this but the one with which we are most familiar in the West.

what unnerved you about occultism- I personally tend to stay away from new age practices as they mix a lot of east and west practices which I find jarring. Please don’t feel you need to answer if you don’t want to share. .

I say this as both a Christian and someone with an English literature degree so I think I am pretty well versed in genre.

The four Gospels are definitely not intended to be taken allegory. They are written in the style of eye-witness accounts. Other parts of the Bible appear to be poetry, prophecy, history, mythohistory. But the accounts of Jesus's life, death and resurrection are definitely not allegorical.

Why?

Exactly, written like a true initiate of a Jewish mystery cult.

Exactly, written like a true initiate of a Jewish mystery cult.

@Kdtym10

Except I don't know exactly what that means (except in very vague terms)!😂

I was referring to Paul

I'll be back :-)

It was over a process of about 4 years. I didn't go searching and never in my life thought I would be one of those devout Christians - I used to cross the street to avoid them! I was always too enlightened and high vibration for that fear-based kind of low vibe stuff. Honestly, I used to believe that Christians didn't understand Christianity until I had an encounter with Jesus in 2017 and my life completely changed. No more occult for me.

I will return after a good sleep.

Night :-)

I was referring to Paul

@Kdtym10 and your point is? What, in your opinion, is the significance of Jewish mystery cults here? To the passage I quoted, I mean.

Surely scripture is first century tradition? What do you think about all the other gospels ? If you don’t believe on authority outside of the scriptures then on what authority was the cannon chosen?

There were quite a few Jesus cults, why was Paul’s so successful?

So do you refute all the teachings of St Augustine? How do you feel about free will?

@Kdtym10 I believe the truth has existed from the beginnings of time. I interact with the word written as is in my Bible. If there is anything I am unsure about I pray about it and mull it over. I have seen a variety of ancient writings, Christian and non Christian. I wouldn't say there is no truth in those outside of Christianity, as I said the truth has existed from the beginnings of time but I focus my faith towards Jesus.

Free will. I believe we have free will but our understanding of the choices available can be severely compromised if we're not in very close communion with God. We can end up being controlled by our egos, fear, greed etc.

And I believe in God's grace. If we were reliant upon our own understanding I wouldn't have got very far. I'm just not clever enough!

Sorry, I meant first century traditions that are not taught in scripture - the letters of Paul do refer to offshoots that brought in false teaching