Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

I tend to think in terms of being in unity with God. Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are in perfect unity according to Christian belief. Thus each is God (taking a different form). Where there is no unity with God/ direct rebellion against unity with God then (in terms of my Christian beliefs) that is sin which a Christian views as wrong.

So might a non Christian belief system that operates independently with God be in unity with Him? Would a rejection of Christ, who according to my belief system is in perfect unity with God the Father and The Holy Spirit, allow for unity with God?

I think, as I believe all humans are made in the image of God and have the capacity to love (God is love according to my belief) then a person might actually be in a partial unity with God. They might not recognise it and thus not acknowledge it, though. However, should they recognise what is unity with God in Christ when they come across Christ? I think the sticking point is how people come to meet Christ. How Christians portray Christ. Whether an individual is in a place where they can have experiential knowledge of Christ and recognise it.

There can be many common elements in religions and belief systems other than Christianity. Yet there is an element of them which is apart from God and is in sin (according to Christianity) as they do not (fully) acknowledge Him. But according to Christian belief all are sinners as we are not (yet) in full unity with God.

A lot of the occult works with God and/or Gods and Goddesses. There is often the belief that Christ consciousness (however so described) can be achieved by all. Often there is a goal of unity with God/gods/goddesses by working together (often with beneficient spirits. These are the hallmarks of theurgy. godetia works with different entities (which are often described as demons - although some are former gods/goddesses). If one is following the left hand path there’s often self deification. There’s often a lot of overlap

God is completely against any and all forms of witchcraft/occultism. We believe all of that comes from the enemy.

@Kdtym10 but 'working with' doesn't really denote worship does it? Achieving a true/complete 'Christ consciousness', as you put it, would involve, acknowledging God as God and thus a complete relinquishing of ego. Which leads neatly to the Christian belief that this is not something a person achieves but rather something that they might receive by the grace of God since we are not equal with God. So then at the other end of the scale there is the self deification. Any overlap on this particular element of belief is problematic and does not really hold together well from a Christian perspective, I think.

@Kdtym10 You seem to be hellbent (scuse the pun) to defend the occult and all that this word encompasses and affirm that it can go hand in hand with being a Christian despite all the practicing Christians here telling you otherwise, which makes me think that you opened this thread with a hidden agenda.

Also, I don't think @Doubleespresso33 post was confusing or conflicting. Quite the opposite, clear as day I'd say, as I suppose she can describe whatever her family did better than anyone.

Also, every single time spirits appear in the bible (in the New Testament at least) it's because Jesus is casting out demons and spirits out of people. Hence anything to do with spiritualism is not advisable for Christians. But if you believe that the two can go hand in hand it's up to you (despite all the evidence to the contrary)

I think the term “worship” is interesting. If you look at the Hebrew word most often translated into worship it really means to bow down, show respect (often to someone superior). I don’t think this is at all incompatible.

At the other end of the scale “ye are gods”

Interesting post. Well I guess there’s a few Christian’s here who might argue that the two are incompatible, I know many more who think these things are entirely compatible- both are just perspectives.

im not sure what hidden agenda you think I have. My post was, what are Christian’s views on the occult? I’ve pointed out, where people jace said effectively it’s forbidden in the bible, that there are alternative interpretations that many people understand to be correct. It’s a conversation with a clear flow. It’s just the progression of the conversation.

You probably don’t find any issue with Doublesspressos post because you don’t know much about the occult. It’s basically like someone saying religion/Hinduism is evil I used to have to read the Quran as a child.l (not quite but it’s the nearest I could think of)

Ok, @Kdtym10, I think it is all pinned on the question of whether a person actually truly bows down or shows respect. Whether in themselves they aim for unity with God or supremacy/independence from God.

If a person truly believes ultimately in God's divinity and supremacy over all creation then they would acknowledge that anything they achieve is actually by His grace and not of their own making. So 'working with' then becomes a moot point, rather a person allows God to work through them and they don't resist His calling.

Was it Witchfest? We used to take hot drinks out to the protestors, I hope that is still happening?

The Satanic Bible? Is that the one which suggests women allow a few pubic hairs to show out of their swimsuit as it helps seduce men? (Absolutely not joking about this one!)

Many Christians are ignorant of pagan beliefs, and even if the beliefs are explained in a sane, sensible, hard to disagree with manner, then the pagan must be aided by the devil to make them seem reasonable. It’s a no-win situation.

On the other hand, there are many open minded Christians who are happy to share thoughts, and focus on where beliefs coincide.

I have met many ex-Christians in the pagan community, and only a couple who have gone from pagan to Christian, which I find rather interesting.

That’s probably fair enough - but I guess that’s not really necessary to have a relationship with God, or to follow the teachings of the bible. It might be something that is prevalent within established Christianity but I would argue not necessary. We were after all created in gods image

Yes!!

I think it’s interesting that the flow is generally one way, although as I say I think many find it easy to reconcile occult beliefs with the bible once the organisation of religion is removed. Many (me included) see it as an iteration of a perennial truth.

Christians often get their knickers in a twist about things that aren’t even occultism though. Like fantasy stories or games that have witches and demons etc in them. As a teenager I played Dungeons and Dragons during the “Satanic Panic” where Christians were convinced the game was leading children to devil worship and paganism 😂

"You probably don’t find any issue with Doublesspressos post because you don’t know much about the occult. It’s basically like someone saying religion/Hinduism is evil I used to have to read the Quran as a child.l (not quite but it’s the nearest I could think of)"

@Kdtym10 You are deliberately being obtuse and misinterpreting my posts to imply something I didn't say. I would never say other religions are evil, Eastern or Western. Just don't put words into my mouth.

I think you're getting distressed because your idea that the occult can go hand in hand with Christianity is being debunked by the practicing Christians in the thread. If people are Christians "in name" but don't practice, they may as well find it jolly good to have their tarot read or consult clairvoyants. The Christians who know their beans would never do that, sorry it goes against whatever point you're trying to make.

I'm bowing out of this discussion because there is no point trying to talk to someone who doesn't want to listen

@Sparthan, I don't, neither have many of the other Christians I know.

I'm not a Christian but I don't see forbidding occult practices as forbidding curiosity. Would you let someone stand in front on an oncoming train to satiate their curiosity?

I can see the angels as they dance on the heads of pins from here!

That’s probably fair enough - but I guess that’s not really necessary to have a relationship with God, or to follow the teachings of the bible. It might be something that is prevalent within established Christianity but I would argue not necessary. We were after all created in gods image

@Kdtym10, the question is do you recognise God in Christ, in The Bible? Do you recognise God when you encounter Him? If not how can you aim to be in unity with Him? If you actively don't want unity with God are you not acting in opposition to Him?

Yes I recognise God in Jesus, I also recognise him in you and I. Many people who follow an occult path are actively seeking unity with God (however that’s described)

The complication often arises from terms that have lots of different interpretations.

Pagan is an umbrella term with a very wide ranging belief systems

Occult can mean different thing To different people. Witch craft can be labelled as occult. And yet Spells are no different to praying. Spell rituals are very similar to things that happen in many denomination masses. Cleansing with incense and smoke as an example. Happens in many Christian masses and also spell work.

Why would one be occult and the other an acceptable practice under Christianity?

When talking such, huge terms that encompasses lots of different interpretations it’s difficult to discuss.

If spell work is occult, Christianity also practices the occult so is not against it. Though they say they are

But I didn’t say that you implied other religions are evil. Where did I say that? I’m just clarifying the reason why I found another posters post confusing.

Im not at all distressed, what an utterly bizarre thing to say. Quite happy chatting away.

Yes, if you feel it would be best for you to step back, you should follow your instinct.

Yes I recognise God in Jesus, I also recognise him in you and I.

@Kdtym10, me too. 👍🥳

Why the need for the practice of magick? (Over simple prayer and faith)

@Ffsnotaconference I see the difference in spell rituals as they involve acting independently from God. Otherwise it would be a prayer/ rite /sacrament / other form of worship.

I 100% agree. Even within the occult and pagan community/iesthere’s lots of different interpretations- people can’t even agree on how to spell magic😂.

Several hundred years of demonisation though has given people some strange ideas.

I mentioned it upthread but Keith Thomas Religion and the decline of magic is a great place to start.

it’s great once you start studying rituals, symbols and the like how the bible and Christianity etc can suddenly seem very different. yes most prayers take the form of spells and vice versa.

it’s great once you start studying rituals, symbols and the like how the bible and Christianity etc can suddenly seem very different. yes most prayers take the form of spells and vice versa.

@Kdtym10

Ok, so why don't you call yourself Christian? You don't, so there must be more to it than the same called by a different name.