Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

Well I practice magic not magick (in joke for occultists). Prayer is absolutely part of what I do. But magic isn’t passive. It’s about getting to know the universe and getting to know me in order to navigate and adapt in order to (in my case) seek unity with the divine.

why do you think prayer and faith are enough?

And don’t forget heavy metal! There’s some cracking videos on you tube from the 80s about that

@Kdtym10 prayer is not passive. Christians have to have Faith and actively let God work through us. Be Christ's hands and feet. Respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

why do you think prayer and faith are enough?

As opposed to practicing magic? Because God works through them.

Well I would say I am Christian in one way. But people would then misunderstand my beliefs. Christianity as people understand it has certain boundaries (many of which are not in the bible) I interpret the Bible in a different way to many a parish priest. I’m probably more Gnostic

And don’t forget heavy metal! There’s some cracking videos on you tube from the 80s about that

@Kdtym10
Just checked, my knickers are not twisted and I have enjoyed all sorts of music including heavy metal.

I’m probably more Gnostic

@Kdtym10, I guessed as much. I have a passing interest but don't see the need for it. If I am in Christ, I have access to all knowledge through Him anyway.

Well depending on what form of Christianity you’re practicing you are probably doing much the same as any magician, you are casting spells and evoking the supernatural through prayer in order to try and change something you’re meditating, you’re performing rituals snd transformation (especially if you believe in transubstantiation). The difference is really in the detail.

Glad to hear it - that would be a tad uncomfortable 😂

Well depending on what form of Christianity you’re practicing you are probably doing much the same as any magician, you are casting spells and evoking the supernatural through prayer in order to try and change something you’re meditating, you’re performing rituals snd transformation (especially if you believe in transubstantiation). The difference is really in the detail.

@Kdtym10

But I pray for God's will to be done. My faith is in Him. That is the difference. Magic needn't reference God.

So we don't get magic, we get miracles! Even if some people don't acknowledge them. 🙂

Most magic has a reference to something bigger, the universe, nature, gods/goddesses the higher self. Your bigger thing happens to be the Christian God.

in many aspect of western magic there’s a thing called “will” a person purpose/destiny. Often seen as The universes purpose for that individual. A person should align with their will.

Do you have faith in yourself as well as God?

You could argue a miracle is just magic done in Gods name.

@Kdtym10

Not quite, I don't think, as it is Him working through us. We are becoming a channel for him to work through. Not us working magic. At every step of the way God is acknowledged and worshipped.

So would you pray for say a sick relative to get better?

So spell work, that involves the Cristian God is acceptable and not occult?

That’s the difference for you? Your definition occult is anything that doesn’t include God? That’s my point, we interpret occult differently.

So why can’t people be Christian’s and also be witches and do spell work? They can and do involve God. And plenty of Christian churches perform the same actions as spell work. So spell work involving God is acceptable. Since churches perform it

Very well put and I totally agree with everything you've said.

I would say thats exactly what the Bible does say magic is fine as long as it involves God It’s not the magic that the problem it’s the god being called.

Much of religion is basically magic. Look at the Catholic mass. The priest wearing ritual clothing (traditionally also the congregation). Special set words chanted in order to evoke the presence of a being a change achieved as a result of a special set of words and actions and appealing to a divine being ie transubstantiation. Ritual closing of the space. It’s all there. Christianity is basically an initiatory magical experience.

I agree.

But, to me that means spell work/witch craft and so on isn’t automatically occult. Where as a lot of people think it is.

It also means these things aren’t inherently against Christianity. How it’s done might be.

But then Christians do activities all the time that don’t involve God in their every day lives. If the definition of occult or paganism is ‘doesn’t involve God’ then many every day tasks would also be ‘occult’.

But that’s why I think discussions on this is difficult. Because everyone has a different view. I grew up Christian. I can’t reconcile that spell work is inherently bad with the practices of the church and religion. Or that anyone engaging in spell work can’t be Christian. Since the religion and church part takes in spell work, just in a slightly different way.

Yes, I think definitions are a central theme of misunderstanding. To me the occult just means hidden (knowledge), but the common conception is that it is something evil. But people are always afraid of the unknown. Obviously there’s been a concerted effort over the years to cast it in this light (and of to a certain extent this has benefitted the occultists).

I just find it bizarre that some Christians (and to some extent certain other faiths are so violently against the practice of magic and other occult practices) when there is so much over lap in both method and often belief.

Many noted occultists were and are Christian. Again some concepts might have different understandings but they are and we’re Christian

@Kdtym10 and @Ffsnotaconference, I think the clue is possibly in the name you are giving it. Why are you calling it spell work and not faith, religious rites, sacrament and worship?

Why are you identifying as an occultist or Gnostic rather than being Christian? Actions can look very similar externally but if the faith that they are effective is put in something other than God then they are separate from God. So, for example, if the faith was put in the particular actions of a ritual itself rather than God working through the ritual / leading the ritual than that is separate and independent from God.

Agree with PP. I'm a Christian, studying a masters in theology. Christianity can't be reconciled with any belief that involves the worship of creation, people, or any other god. All supernatural activity is either via God or via the 'other mob'. Nevertheless, while I'm sure protestors are sincere in their belief they're helping, I don't think picketing or threatening people with hell has ever been effective. And, however much any Christian may disagree with others' beliefs, they have just as much right to practice it in a free society.

He would not. You've hit the nail firmly on the head.

@Kdtym10 & @Ffsnotaconference
And yes, I understand that 'occult' means hidden knowledge but if you are in communion with God through Christ then you have access to all knowledge, according to Christian belief, by having that communion with God. And you can access His knowledge through faith in Christ's work. Which involves God and is not apart or separate from Him.

2 Corinthians 4:6
"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Colossians 2:2-4
"2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words."

As a Christian a person should not be attempting to essentially swallow up the tree of knowledge themselves in order to become as a god themselves but rather acting in unity with God and thus partake of His knowledge, share it in unity with Him,

So I would not be shouting threats, or condemning people on the street, as I have explained previously, I don't think that is right but there are differences between paganism, Occultism, witchcraft and Christianity which I am not afraid of acknowledging. I am Christian and that is how I describe myself and that is what I believe in. So I don't align myself with Paganism or occultism or witchcraft as whilst there might be similarities there are differences between these belief systems/ religions and Christianity.

Well I guess I could say I have Gnostic Christian beliefs.

I believe in Christ consciousness, I would consider myself Christian, but I would also identify myself as many other things, it’s not necessary to me to be exclusively Christian.

I study hidden esoteric knowledge so I would see myself as an occultist,

The trouble with saying you’re a Christian is that, thanks to millennia of those in positions of power telling people what Christianity is and isn’t it creates an image of what that person believes.

So why do Christian’s practice rituals?