Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

Re. the genre of the gospels not being allegorical, there are some good points here:

Re. your question about "the other gospels", this is a helpful article:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/the-biblical-canon/#:~:text=These%20books%20were%20largely%20decided,testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20themselves.

Well what does that passage talk about? It talks about all the spiritual skills the Corinthians possess, but they are divided. Much like an initiated/enlightened person or a child with see the world in a fragmented way. To think like a child

These things will drop away once you reach maturity/perfection/completeness )depending on the interpretation of Teleion). Once you are initiated into the ways of perfection you think as a perfect or completed person(maybe that’s where the Gnostics got the term Perfect from?)

@MuMudSandWater they're great resources, thanks for sharing.

This is a cracking, short book written in plain English. For Old and New Testament it covers off:

1. What's included and why [and why not "other" Gospels, Maccabees, etc]
2. Are modern translations faithful to the original texts?

Highly recommended if this interests you, but you don't want something dense or technical.

uk.bookshop.org/p/books/a-christian-s-pocket-guide-to-how-we-got-the-bible-gregory-r-lanier/110119

My original message transformed square brackets into a bunch of flowers 😂

It should have said "And why other texts, like "other" Gospels, the Maccabees, etc aren't included, with some context into differences in Catholic/Protestant canon."

These things will drop away once you reach maturity/perfection/completeness )depending on the interpretation of Teleion). Once you are initiated into the ways of perfection you think as a perfect or completed person(maybe that’s where the Gnostics got the term Perfect from?)

When do you think that is reached, @Kdtym10? Do you think that is possible in this life?

But why were they false teaching? I mean this chap didn’t even meet Jesus. Seems to have had done sort of seizure on the road to Damascus - took 3 days to rise again/recover next thing you know he’s flown in the face of the teachings about this being for Jews, sets pen to paper telling all a sundry how get should be behaving. Where’s his authority to start preaching about false teachings?

I’m probably being thick but aren’t they just a bunch of quotes saying the New Testament is great? I’m not sure they add anything about allegory

I mean this chap didn’t even meet Jesus.

@Kdtym10, the account describes Paul meeting Jesus in spirit. Do you feel that should seen as be secondary to meeting Jesus in the flesh?

being secondary

But I’ve heard religious historians express numerous different explanations as to why the canon is how it is. Ranging from almost conspiracy theories to them basically being the best sellers.

Did he meet Jesus in spirit? Maybe it was a demon leading him astray by pretending to be Jesus?

@Kdtym10,

Did he meet Jesus in spirit? Maybe it was a demon leading him astray by pretending to be Jesus?

And how do you know whether what you experience spiritually is from God or demonic?

Interesting enough i went to a huge Pagan Wicca fayre at posh place in Swansea recently,
not going to say the name of the place as it could acctract bible bashers,

My take on this is in regards of Christian ✝️ faith is that there is an hypocrisy going on , classic one is well known event on Christian calender that is on autumn time harvest festival,
this was orginally was a pagan event back in history but adopted as a Christian festival,

I am spiritualist but the Christian Church say this is the work of devil 😈 ect,
being intuitive is actually a Primeval instinct to protect us from any kinds of harm, emotional, psychological, sexual by predators,
even the animal kingdom has the same primeval inuitive nature instinct,
God's creatures,

I find it very interesting the Christian and Catholic Church sees Spiritualism differently as a taboo subject,

when in the past we all know the church and Catholic Church has struggled with issues in regards of child welfare,
child sexual abuse,

also i come from Afro-carribean culture i am quite geeky about history ,
I have read about how the Christian Churches in history ,
went around the globe the world , lecturing preaching and converting other cultures such as Native Americans , African nations and Australians,
to convert to the Christian faith,
even for Native Americans to change their traditional clothes to fit into western clothes,

how arrogant is that to think in the past Christian faith is better than any other cultures faiths ?

Also i attended local modern church's Christian women's workshop or conference weekend,

I noticed they were asking if any Christian women could say a personal testimonial or if they have had any lucid interesting dreams and what they thought message could be about from dream,
if they were up to doing this?

Also about "talking in tongues", reminding me ironically of similarities with of some of the workshops i have attended to at my local Spiritualism church.

Well there’s certain ways of checking which I can’t disclose.

But then I’m not carrying the weight of millions of peoples lives and deaths and numerous ways on my shoulders

Well there’s certain ways of checking which I can’t disclose.

@Kdtym10, and why is that? Why is it important they are kept secret? Surely the more people in acting in unity with God and not being lead astray the better?

I agree ,
Good question @heyhohello
and observations too.

why the big secrecy in regards of this?@Kdtym10

isn't that contradictory @Kdtym10

I am using spell work an example

my argument is simply this is a conversation that can’t be had because you need to set a distinct definition.

And by those definitions you definitely can practice spell work as a Christian as long as you label it ‘ritual’ or ‘prayer’.

But again, how does that work. Murder is a sin? If I give murder a slightly different name does it make it ok? You are saying calling it a spell makes it occult and therefore Christian’s turn away from it. Yet do exactly the same actions and call it ritual Christian’s are allowed to embrace it.

This is how I don’t understand how Christian’s can say that Christian’s can’t do spells(as an example), they can as long as they rebrand it a ritual. Spells are occult so not with in the christian faith. Except they are if you call it ritual or prayer.

Same actions, different label will decide if someone can be a Christian or not? Decides someone’s after life?

I am very curious and intrigued by the idea any Christian or Catholic munsnet would be up my post observations and questions,

I ment to say
I would be very intrigued and curious of what any committed Christians and Catholics have to say about my thought provoking post i have put on this mumsnet section on faith religion and spirituality..

@Ffsnotaconference

I know what you mean, Christianity often does this ,
It's called akin to religious hypocrisy

@cerisepanther73 & @Ffsnotaconference simply because it's not ritual per se (although it could be if those rituals involved actions that abused others) that is the defining difference between Paganism / witchcraft / occultism and Christianity. It is where there is difference that I disagree. And the prime difference is the focus of worship or indeed whether the ritual is done in worship.

When I was talking about how a person described their ritual (spells or prayers etc), the name they give it, it is because this can be important as that tends to denote what the (worship) of focus of their ritual is.

As I have said, repeatedly, I am Christian and hence that is what I believe in. I do not follow or recommend any other belief system or religion over Christianity.

@cerisepanther73,

I would be very intrigued and curious of what any committed Christians and Catholics have to say about my thought provoking post i have put on this mumsnet section on faith religion and spirituality..

I am wary of spiritualism. Not saying spirits don't exist (how could I as a Christian?) but more in recognition of the power a spirit can hold over people. Spiritualism is something I don't know a lot about but also something I would feel uncomfortable practicing or finding out more about due to this reason. In terms of my own spirituality I am content with Christianity.

When you are talking about abuses committed by the church I am saddened and outraged and recognise this is something the church has to do much better at protecting people from.

I am unsure of your point.

You seem to be reinforcing mine.

Christianity has lots of examples of spell work and witch craft. They use the term prayer and ritual instead.

and that one term seems to be the line between occult and accepted by Christianity. To me and my beliefs, it makes no sense.

If a Christian does a spell but calls it a ritual (which is term popular amongst witches, pagans and so on) and dedicates it to Christ, then it’s acceptable under Christianity.

So back to my point. I don’t know how a Christian can say ‘spells are occult’ when the actions of a spell are not considered occult. But permitted.

It’s makes the conversation difficult to have. When there’s no clear cut definition. And the actions themselves aren’t what defines it.

I don’t really understand your last paragraph. I am aware it’s your beliefs. I never said one religion or system should be above another. Or that you should recommend an non Christian religion.

I am pointing out that Christianity involves a lot of acts and rituals that posters are labelling as occult. And saying if you do these rituals but use a slightly different name for it, it’s condensed by Christianity. I am point out that it does make sense and you can’t have a sensible conversation about it. Because of the above.

@Ffsnotaconference

Murder is a sin? If I give murder a slightly different name does it make it ok?

You tell me. Is euthanasia murder? Is manslaughter? Was a British soldier killing a Nazi in WW2 murder? I could go on.

I don't have all the answers.