Views on Paganism/witchcraft/the occult

[Kdtym10]

There’s been quite a few reports of Christian protesters at a large gathering of practitioners/followers/followers/scholars of paganism/witchcraft/the occult/magic in London recently. Apparently telling people (including children) they were going to hell. I wasn’t there, I’ve just heard this off quite a few different people.

Personally, I know many Christians (generally not that orthodox-with a small o) who practice magic and work with the occult sciences. I’ve never really come across anyone objecting to my practices.

But I know many in the US have met with quite a bit of opposition where there’s more fundamentalist mentality.

Im interested to hear what Christians really think of these things. Were these people just loons with megaphones or do they represent a general perception amongst Christians.

Essentially this thread proves you can be a Christian witch. Therefore being a witch is not, intrinsically, occult or non Christian.

Which goes back to definitions. You need to make a clear distinction of definitions before a sensible discussion can be had.

I am pointing out that Christianity involves a lot of acts and rituals that posters are labelling as occult.

@Ffsnotaconference and I am acknowledging this. I am saying the defining difference is not the action itself but why it is done. The aim of the action. And with regard to religion the focus and meaning of the act/ritual in terms of who or what is being worshipped through the act/ritual.

Why are you asking me?

We aren’t talking under uk law. Or my moral stance. We are talking about your religion. As per the bible.

If 2 people commit murder in the same circumstances, is one person commuting a sin and one not?

Sounds like it’s possible so therefore there’s no definitive way you can say ‘murder is a sin’ and yet Christians and other religions do.

So it makes sense you can’t also say ‘spells and witchcraft are definitely sins.’

It’s really going to depend. Which means it doesn’t fit the definition of occult or anti Christian. Which means you can be a Christian witch.

And the religious rituals and acts within the Christian church are not occult in that they are not hidden away from or made secret from people. Anyone can find out about them.

We are talking about your religion. As per the bible.

@Ffsnotaconference, strictly speaking the thread was concerned Christian views of the occult, witchcraft and Paganism.

You asked me a question which I answered with a question because the definition of murder is dependent on the intention of the accused which accords with my Christian beliefs. I was interested in what you would define as murder.

Which means you can be a Christian witch.

@Ffsnotaconference, well, yes, depending upon how witchcraft is defined! You would describe me as a 'Christian witch' if you said 'Prayers are spells and witches say spells and that makes anyone who prays a witch' 😉

Witch is not something I define myself as though.

@Ffsnotaconference and the definition of sin is something that is (done) separately from God, without God, without seeking His will, something which goes against His will and unity with Him.

To know all the individual acts, in each individual context, would require full and complete knowledge of God! Which means human beings sin!

This is my view, too.

I am not the sort to go to shouty protests nor would I tell someone unsolicited that they will go to Hell, I do think that only hardens attitudes and isn't helpful.

The Bible forbids these practices. There are a lot of 'New Age' Christians about, but I believe they have gone off piste and need to think very carefully about what they actually believe and where it will take them.

I'm afraid if you follow Christ you are often going to be unpopular because you will not support many of the 'modern' things people like to believe. You may be seen as intolerant, perhaps even hateful.

But it's disgraceful that Christians are shouting threats, would Jesus do that??

Jesus didn't pull his punches, so to speak. He didn't sugar coat things. However he didn't threaten people with Hell. Instead he offered them the way to Heaven and eternal life.

@CrunchyCarrot "I'm afraid if you follow Christ you are often going to be unpopular because you will not support many of the 'modern' things people like to believe. You may be seen as intolerant, perhaps even hateful."

Really? I'm not a Christian, but that pov surprises me. I can't see how following Christ could be seen that way. Following many of the available Christian churches yes- but Christ? Surely not.

Back to my original point.

The definitions matter. And since there’s no clear cut definitions it’s difficult to have this conversation.

Spell work isn’t intrinsically occult, which was expressed by posters earlier on the thread. You can be a Christian witch, if it depends on intention or the why you are doing it. So spell work isn’t intrinsically not Christian. It is Christian if it’s called ritual and has an acceptable why?

Though the why being defining factor, doesn’t make sense either. Which why’s make it permissible in Christianity which do not? Which aims make it permissible and which dont.

Once you get into that conversation the act (in the case spell work) is permissible under certain circumstances in Christianity. Christianity or the bible accepts it, in certain circumstance.

Lots of paganism/witch craft and so on isn’t hidden either. It’s there for everyone to learn. So, again, paganism, witch craft and so on are not all occult and speaking in broad terms doesn’t work.

Which has been exactly my point.

The definitions matter and claims that the bible and church say ‘witch craft’ is not permitted, are wrong.

people saying ‘clairvoyancy’ is not permitted is actually incorrect.

These things are all permitted in certain circumstances.

and starting the discussion from a factually incorrect stance. The definitions matter and without them a discussion can’t be had sensibly.

@Ffsnotaconference it is difficult to talk about factual definitions of religious practice in terms of Christianity which has faith and belief at its core.

Yes it is. I agree.

But it does have, it seems, rules. Such as witch craft is not permitted. But as discussed. It is. As long as it’s rebranded to a different name.

@Ffsnotaconference but the aim of the religious act is more important than the specific action of it. It is done in worship of God?

Are you telling me witchcraft is done in worshipping God through following and believing in Christ?

Go over to the witchcraft thread and tell them that! 😂😉

Is it done?

It’s a good question. I think we experience many deaths and rebirths during our lifetimes (I believe in reincarnation). I think it is possible to eventually reach it in a lifetime

For many reasons. Mostly because initiatory experiences build up knowledge and experiences which take usually years. Jumping in when not ready can lead to issues.

To quote Jesus himself: (Matthew 10:22)

You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

John 15:18-19 (Jesus speaking)

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Following Christ is not an easy thing, it does not win you any popularity in this world, because the world is given over to sin and Satan (for now) hence we as Christians (having the Holy Spirit within us) will be reviled.

It’s a good question. I think we experience many deaths and rebirths during our lifetimes (I believe in reincarnation). I think it is possible to eventually reach it in a lifetime

@Kdtym10, ah I see. A lot pinning on definitions (life, death, rebirth) there. Too much to conceptualise easily. I tend to order my thoughts in terms of mainstream Christianity so that is how I view and describe these things.

For many reasons. Mostly because initiatory experiences build up knowledge and experiences which take usually years. Jumping in when not ready can lead to issues.

This seems very reliant on people, their knowledge and experience, though. Being 'initiated' and others withholding information until certain initiatory requirements are met. Which doesn't sit well with me. I find it reassuring to think Christ is for whosoever will believe in Him.

Well the Christian church is full of initiatory steps though. If you look at the sacraments they are basically initiations (complete with ceremony.

Let’s look at requirements to have holy communion. This will be either marked by passing through the gateway of first holy communion or confirmation. Why is there this gateway? To even get there you typically need to be baptised.

Marriage was an initiation which needed to be undertaken in order to have sex and have children.

all of these gateways guarded by the church. Presumably this sits with you ok? For many years (and still) Christ wasn’t for everyone- what if you weren’t allowed to get married? What if you weren’t confirmed because you disagreed with part of the church’s teaching? Is Christ still for these people?

Think of initiation like wanting to swim the channel. First step, learn to swim, second get fit, third learn to swim in open water, then learn about all the additional safety, tides, cold etc needed to swim long distance open water. Gather your supporters people who you trust.,finally swim the channel.

Yes anyone can walk off the beach and head for France but they’re probably going to die. Best work with people with specialist knowledge to help you. Part of their responsibility is to stop people jumping into the sea if they have no chance of making it.

Maybe if the church was a bit more discerning over who they asked to do what they wouldn’t be requiring people to be celibate who aren’t suited to that life. Maybe they wouldn’t be banning contraception in places where overpopulation is exacerbating poverty. Maybe they wouldn’t be expecting tithes off people who can’t afford it.

You see initiation as blocking. I see it as responsible action, a way to ensure those going through the gates are those who can manage what lies beyond that gate.

You see that has the potential to be really psychologically damaging. It’s promoting removing oneself from society, not dealing with being disliked and ultimately dissociation from the material world in which we live.

You see initiation as blocking. I see it as responsible action, a way to ensure those going through the gates are those who can manage what lies beyond that gate.

@Kdtym10, I see there is balance to be had between protecting people and blocking. Yes, people need to be protected from misconstruing meaning and engaging in ritual inappropriately. But equally the church should not block people from coming to Christ. In Matthew 18 Jesus says this which I think is relevant to the topic:

"2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Causing to Stumble
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. "

It’s promoting removing oneself from society

@Kdtym10

No because also this is written:

Mark 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (KJV)

How can this be done without engaging with people? And being amongst people?

Sorry, no text should be crossed out. Appears to be MN gremlin (which I forgot about) in the features where dashes read as crossings out.

I had that read at my wedding😀.

The children wanted to approach Jesus, Jesus wanted them to approach him, He felt they were worthy because they possessed child like qualities (because they were children). Once these things are in place the barriers (the disciples) are moved aside.

We should always help those who seek the path towards the light. This is embedded in many occult initiatory paths