Are Court Seers/Oracles/Astrologers still used today?

[Inspecto]

Throughout history there appears to be a Court Seer/Oracle/Astrologer that Kings and Queens or other leaders turn to for guidance. And their insights were taken seriously in decision making too.

Documentary on Netflix suggests the blood moon during the fall of Constantinople spelled omens. Heeding these astrological omens influenced Ottoman leader Mehmed II’s decision making, leading to his side successfully conquering Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.

I think it’s fascinating that an astrological omen was identified, taken seriously in decision making by a leader and acted on with the predicted results coming true.

Do modern day leaders (kings or queens or emperors or empresses) still turn to omen and spiritual sign readers? Or has that art been lost or dismissed in favour of something else?

@faretheewell Another example: if someone aces their tests through cheating they will continue cheating because they have learned that cheating helps them ace tests. They are not going to think cheating is a mistake unless or until they get caught and reprimanded.

In praise, in prayer, in His word, in His sacraments and let's not forget where love is.

As for love. Love is a seductive 'nice' feeling. Love, as an emotion, is dangerous because it has no rules. Without rules, Love can be a force for both good and evil. People can get hurt when Love goes too far and disrespects the rules.

Princess Diana was a victim of her husband's adulterous love affair with Camilla. There were rules too, called marriage.

God also advises self-control. This applies to love too.

@Inspectamus, the intensity of emotions coming through in your posts has left me feeling a bit stumped. I felt I had to respond relatively quickly as you are obviously suffering over this but I do not feel my posting is doing enough to reassure you. I will pray for you.

But if you continue to feel this strongly, I suggest you do address your concerns directly to the C of E church. Either by writing to the archbishop, like you mentioned previously or talking directly to the vicar of your local C of E church. The latter is good as they will be able to guide and support you in person. And as this is such a heavy weight to carry upon your own shoulders I think support and guidance is much needed. There is only so much you can do as a British subject, after all.

I echo the suggestion to speak to someone within the Church, even if it's just your local vicar.

You cannot simultaneously abide by Christian doctrine and believe in horoscopes/astrology

Thank you for the responsiveness. You've tried really hard to reassure me. Thank you for praying for me - I do appreciate it.

I thought I'd nipped this in the bud a few weeks ago. But the concerns have not gone away. I'm sorry about the intensity of emotions - they've been bottled up for a week or so now, and have just come out overnight because I couldn't contain them any longer.

I think I do need to write to or speak to someone within the Church of England, but I'm scared because I see the church as a patriarchal institution that will dismiss me because I am a woman without their fancy theological bookish background.

I have mostly got my insights from intuition and investigating those intuitions and language (which turned out to be possible and therefore couldn't be ignored).

The clergy work differently with scripture, which I am saying seems to be:

• (a) limited by its scope, language limitations and nature,
• (b) The coronation risks undermining scripture anyway (such as the legitimacy of God's Ten Commandments),
• (c) even though they have the bookish scriptural knowledge, I'm not convinced they have taken the time to read world events in the lead up to this coronation, stop and reflect/think this through properly. Otherwise they wouldn't be plowing ahead without explaining to the people why, following a plague called corona-virus, the Church of England is crowning (coronating) two Adulterers as King and Queen for the first time in its history when God is very clear in the Ten Commandments that "Thou Shalt NOT commit Adultery" (Exodus 20:14).
• (d) I feel the Church of England is being tone deaf to scripture and God and world events too. All this in context of a coronation seeking to put the crown with 'Great Diamond of the World' (as Prince Harry put it) on the Other Woman.

Seeing the local vicar is a good idea because a face-to-face chat has the human effect... and likely to be more reassuring (as long as he's not patronising!) because I can gauge his responses and language more immediately. But I may need to take someone with me - because, as I said, I am scared to say this to an intimidating and patriarchal institution. But there really is only so much I can do, as you say. I must speak

Silence feels so much easier. But the silence is also deafening.

"Speak now or forever hold your peace” is rooted in Christianity and European custom for a reason.

Thank you 😊

@Inspectamus, I would like to encourage to pluck up the courage and see your local vicar. Patriarchy is not defeated by women staying quiet, after all! Added to this there may even be a female vicar local to you. Yes, taking someone with you is a good idea. 3 people can make for a better discussion than two, I feel, in terms of perspective.

But most of us are born into Christianity and raised being told the doctrine, rather than choosing the doctrine with our own free will. There are other faiths out there... who is to say which is right or wrong?

You cannot simultaneously abide by Christian doctrine and believe in horoscopes/astrology

But the same can be said of the Church of England. They cannot simultaneously preach the Christian doctrine and then crown an Adulterous couple King and Queen at a religious coronation when the doctrine states in the Ten Commandments, "Thou Shalt NOT Commit Adultery" (Exodus 20:14). This is where my concerns are coming from, because it questions the legitimacy of God's authority and challenges my faith in Christianity. If God exists, then why is he allowing this sacrilege at such a senior royal level on the world stage? This hasn't been explained sufficiently.

I'm know very little about Horoscopes/astrology - I'm reaching outside the christian faith and church because I'm confronted with a contradiction in their actions versus the Christian doctrine. I asked a question, that is all.

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. - Matthew 5:37

As it stands, I cannot trust the Church of England and the Christian faith preached for good reason.

As pointed out before, if you're a Christian then God says which faith is right or wrong, and other gods are false gods.

If you're brought up Christian and choose to examine or doubt your faith that's fine. If you choose to fully believe and never give it any deep thought that's also fine.

How's your Hebrew, by the way?

But can't you see how or why a Christian brought up in the Church of England Christian doctrine might experience a crisis in faith and examine the legitimacy of the what the Church preaches in these Corona-virus and Coronation times?

They say, "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" is one of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:14.

Their actions are to now coronate a famously adulterous couple as King and Queen who are supposed to be Defenders of the Faith and Head of the Church of England. The context is that the younger wife and mother of the heirs died tragically a year after divorce (which could have been avoided, in my view, if she had been given some care and love - and not been the victim of her husband's love affair with Camilla that began before they married).

Actions speak louder than words. Words and talk can be cheap...

How's your Hebrew, by the way?

I don't recall my Church of England school ever attempting to teach me any of the Bible's original languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek. But I did have a few lessons in Latin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_languages

So, maybe some thing have got lost in translation. Are you suggesting we go back to basics with language too?

But can't you see how or why a Christian brought up in the Church of England Christian doctrine might experience a crisis in faith and examine the legitimacy of the what the Church preaches

Yes - it's exactly what happened to me about 30 years before Covid.

I'll come back to your other points later.

Point: context matters.

There’s a big difference in naturally occurring corona-virus as a worldwide-game-changing pandemic (that was clearly not for godly monetary profit) to the man-made inventions of corona products sold for the purposes of monetary profit as you’ve described.

King, for example, is used in a lot of different cases. People know that a hotel called “King’s Lodge” does not necessarily mean it has anything to do with the King. But that also doesn’t mean all titles using ‘King’ have nothing to do with the monarch, such as used by barristers during the reign of that monarch.

Corona (as a word) can be used for anything and by anyone, but the use and user can impact meaning. Humans can use the word for manmade inventions (like corona beer), but people also know that’s a manmade product. Just as God can use the word for natural phenomena such as viruses; people can then wonder if God is behind the corona virus because the word means ‘crown’ and the crown symbolises God’s authority.

God deals with plagues, pandemics, floods and other natural phenomena, not manmade inventions and products as you’ve described.

King, for example, is used in a lot of different cases. People know that a hotel called “King’s Lodge” does not necessarily mean it has anything to do with the King. But that also doesn’t mean all titles using ‘King’ have nothing to do with the monarch, such as used by barristers called King’s Counsel KC *during the reign of that monarch.

Context and impact matter to meaning.

@Inspectamus, how's things? Are you any further along in terms of addressing your concerns directly to the C of E?

Have you anyone in real life to discuss this with? Someone from the church who can speak in terms of the theology relating to these issues?

Still experiencing a crisis of faith.

I did speak to someone at my local church informally, to test the waters. He just listened and nodded and advised prayer. I explained that prayer had led me to seeking answers from the Church because it’s not God who is responsible for crowning an adulterous couples - it’s entirely the Church of England’s fault.

I didn’t think my local church would be much help. They don’t have the power to do anything either.

I will need to speak with someone else in the C of E. Preferably a woman, because I find the patriarchal ranks within the Church intimidating.

Is there anyone you recommend I can approach?

Is there anyone you recommend I can approach?

Not specifically. But if you've tried C of E you could then try Catholic or Methodist. Alternatively you could try something like an Alpha course where you'll be able to discuss all sorts.

But the other churches will not be able to deal with C of E concerns - up you'll just be able to discuss the theology and get prayer support etc.

In crises of faith remember don't underestimate prayer!

That’s not a bad idea.

I’ve always thought Nicky Gumbel was approachable, informed and willing to get into tricky discussions about faith. I’ll see if he is contact-able.

You could try any of the female bishops?

The problem I’m finding in this crisis of faith is that I am starting to no longer believe in prayer. I’m feeling it’s just meaningless words and magical thinking.

None of the Christian faith feels real anymore in light of the evidence that the Church of England preaches ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ (Exodus 20:14) but is taking the actions to now crown an adulterous couple as Head of the Church, King and Queen. What a joke. It’s hypocrisy.

Bizarrely, it is corona-virus that gives me faith that God exists and has real power to enforce retribution.

I don’t think the Church of England should be taking liberties with God’s Ten Commandments in these corona-virus and coronation times. But they won’t heed the concerns and warnings…

That’s also a good idea.

I could write to a range of leaders across the Christian faith, of different denominations, to get a rounded and unified Christian response to the Church of England’s actions in crowning an adulterous couple as Head of Church, Defenders of Faith and as King and Queen.

@Inspectamus, the C of E is just one church. Don't throw away the whole of your faith because they are failing to reach you! I see you can't get past its history. So go to another church. Thinking about it, I would suggest the Methodist church. Less controversial history. The thing is, I think you need the community to help nurture your faith and comfort you in your concerns and help you with discernment as to your part in all this.

So I understood that Jesus died so that our sins could be forgiven, even if we break the 10 commandments.

So if King Charles has prayed for forgiveness for commiting adultery and repents truly in his heart, then he will have been forgiven by God.

So if has been forgiven by God then who are humans to stand in judgement?

Now I have no idea if Charles has sought forgiveness and repented. But he has spoken before about his deep faith and so there is no reason to assume he hasn't.

I was thinking more try and make an appointment for a chat.

The adultery issue was discussed within the COE years ago, there was a split in opinion as to whether Charles could indeed be crowned King or be head of the church. The decision was that he could. You're not going to bring any startling new insight to the table or make them revise their decision.

Whatever the response from the church(es) I think making an appointment/ writing might help give you some closure @Inspectamus.

Seeing someone in person, going to Alpha and regular services I feel would be best in order to give you some support in your dilemma and nurture your faith which you said you feel is slipping. Don't try to shoulder this alone - I feel it's causing you too much unrest for that.

And you are not alone! @Inspectamus

Crises of faith within the Christian community are common, as are worries over leadership and discerning what God's will is for our own lives.

Bizarrely, it is corona-virus that gives me faith that God exists and has real power to enforce retribution

@Inspectamus, you must feel very hurt and angry towards people - including very ordinary people that suffered in the Corona epidemic to be comforted by the thought of God using His power for retribution.

It worries me because unless you are somehow superhuman it is inevitable some of that hurt and anger must be aimed at yourself. We are human and fallible and all in need of forgiveness. As I said upthread, the purpose of warnings, if and when we see them is to be more single minded in turning to God. And God is love so each of us must love and forgive.

Regarding you prayers: If you feel your prayers aren't being answered, I am wondering what sort of answer you are hoping for. Because you can have faith that if you pray for something that is God's will it will be granted. So the conditions are two fold, 1) what you are asking for needs to be God's will 2)you need to be utilising faith for your prayer to be granted. The other thing that you may have not considered is how and when your prayer may be granted. It may be in a way you have not being expecting.