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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Are Court Seers/Oracles/Astrologers still used today?

227 replies

Inspecto · 02/01/2023 01:37

Throughout history there appears to be a Court Seer/Oracle/Astrologer that Kings and Queens or other leaders turn to for guidance. And their insights were taken seriously in decision making too.

Documentary on Netflix suggests the blood moon during the fall of Constantinople spelled omens. Heeding these astrological omens influenced Ottoman leader Mehmed II’s decision making, leading to his side successfully conquering Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.

I think it’s fascinating that an astrological omen was identified, taken seriously in decision making by a leader and acted on with the predicted results coming true.

Do modern day leaders (kings or queens or emperors or empresses) still turn to omen and spiritual sign readers? Or has that art been lost or dismissed in favour of something else?

OP posts:
faretheewell · 05/01/2023 18:52

Last post @Vincitveritas.

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 19:00

That's great @faretheewell peace be with you.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:06

And you @Vincitveritas . 🙂

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 19:10

😊

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 19:17

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 18:47

Spiritually, I feel like someone, somewhere, (I hate to say spirit or ghost, but there you go) wants their side of the story heard (and I think that’s the fair thing to offer - looking in and understanding, rather than wilful blindness to what seems like clear injustice that has been brushed under the carpet and trodden all over).

The feelings of ghosts and their injustices, essentially restless spirits is something I would be and am very wary of. It could easily stray into mediumship and haunting. I would suggest praying on it and seeking God, and His will, unity with Him for direction in a situation such as this, for someone of faith. Don't strive for meaning - you'll end up confused. Pray, rest in Him and let it come to you.

This came to me… no one wants the attention of a ghost/spirit and their injustices (and it’s the only one that’s happened to me!). It’s scary and stressful knowing what the right thing to do is. And for all we know, God sent the aggrieved ghost/spirit my way because he knew I would (eventually) look into and ask questions (it sounds like if they were sent your way, you would shun them out of fear it was mediumship or haunting? - I’m not like that because I believe in fairness and hearing victims of injustice out, even if they are ghosts/spirits - who else will listen?).

And at first I ignored and dismissed because I was being wary (like you say) of things like mediumship and haunting. But I am naturally a curious person so I eventually looked into what I spiritually sensed was the ghost/spirit’s concerns - and that’s when I found out that there was something justified to it rooted in factual history. And I think it is spiritually significant, but God and time will tell what this even means.

Anyway, I am glad I was able to talk this through because it has troubled me (as you can tell!). It’s very hard to talk about because it feels esoteric. And I’m not a spiritual expert by any means, which is why I wondered if any Court Astrologer/Seer/Oracle expert types still exist.

I’ll see if I can muster the strength, coherency and words to write eloquently to the Archbishop of Canterbury at Lambeth Palace.

Happy New Year. Happy Epiphany Eve.

Don’t forget to take your Christmas decorations down!

Amen 🙏

OP posts:
faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:20

@Inspecto, would you like me to pray for you?

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 19:22

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:20

@Inspecto, would you like me to pray for you?

Yes please. You seem very kind. Thank you 🙏

OP posts:
faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:24

Ok, I will. You're very welcome. 🙂

"24
“‘“The Lord bless you
 and keep you;
25
the Lord make his face shine on you
 and be gracious to you;
26
the Lord turn his face toward you
 and give you peace.”’"

(Numbers 6)

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 19:31

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:24

Ok, I will. You're very welcome. 🙂

"24
“‘“The Lord bless you
 and keep you;
25
the Lord make his face shine on you
 and be gracious to you;
26
the Lord turn his face toward you
 and give you peace.”’"

(Numbers 6)

❤️ 😊 🙏

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 05/01/2023 19:36

I'm praying for all three of you, @Vincitveritas , @faretheewell and @Inspecto. You've more than earned it with all the deep delving!

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:40

@picklemewalnuts, thank you. 🙂

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 19:41

And God bless you too! @picklemewalnuts & @Vincitveritas

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 19:47

I will also pray for you @Inspecto

@picklemewalnuts Thank you, you're a gem - same to you @faretheewell.

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 20:31

❤️ 😇 🤲 Thank you! 🙏 😊 💗

OP posts:
Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 22:17

Just thought I'd share this:

There's a more recent version but it's a bit longer. Shalom.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 23:10

@Vincitveritas,

Lovely, thank you!!!😃🙏🥹

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 23:49

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 22:17

Just thought I'd share this:

There's a more recent version but it's a bit longer. Shalom.

💕

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 06/01/2023 07:35

Ah we played that so much during Lockdown! Brings back emotional memories.

faretheewell · 11/01/2023 09:05

Just reread this thread today as this speech by John Wesley ( linked to in a devotional I read) prompted me to.

http://www.crivoice.org/cathspirit.html

One thing I did notice is that this post of mine could easily be misconstrued, I don't think what I said actually reflected what I was trying to say at the time or what I thought I said!🥴

"I expect that pretty much all religious believers since the dawn of human existence believed that their particular deity or deities sent signs and messages, many of which probably contradicted the ones sent by other people's deities."

I don't... necessarily... just appreciate interpretations and understanding of events and their retelling can be as individual as the participants experiencing them and the contexts they occurred within.

What I was trying to express is whilst I think God sends signs and messages they don't necessarily conflict with ones other people think they receive, even though they might appear to. Rather they can be particular to a single person or society and for interpretation by them.

Now, I feel relieved to get that off my chest!

Inspectamus · 23/01/2023 04:47

@faretheewell "Now, I feel relieved to get that off my chest!"

Thank you! I hope that feels better!

Your recent post helped me rethink points made in this thread (I am the OP with a new name) and I've had some time to mull it over. Now I have time to respond and get some things off my chest too!

I found some answers to the OP question about the upcoming coronation.

"The astrologer's most recent predictions to Express.co.uk were as follows: "Even though monarchs have turned to astrologers for advice in the past (Dr John Dee and Elizabeth I, Charles II and William Lilly, Princess Diana, Debbie Frank and Penny Thornton) – it seems Charles has not." "He has chosen one of the most inauspicious horoscope dates of 2023 for his proposed investiture." She claimed: "The Church of England will undergo a crisis and Charles and Camilla will not rule." She referenced comments by Anthony Holden, a writer who has written/reworked three biographies of King Charles. In a letter to The Guardian, he wrote: "The Church of England has never before crowned a divorced man as king, and therefore its supreme governor, let alone one who has publicly confessed to adultery – with the relevant woman, also a divorcee, sitting beside him expecting to be crowned Queen Consort.

Time will tell, but if something happens then the Church of England cannot claim there were no circumstantial signs before the coronation. The signs are there, but it's up to them to heed them or not.

On another point, you were well-meaning when you said: "But I'm failing to see the relevance in terms of a relationship to God and how the information helps you do His will in terms of the right course of action or what can be done with the information. I mean, you might have revelation on that point, that you have not shared, but again I would ask which way round your 'insight' is coming." followed by "The people directly involved will all be dead now."

But I have struggled with this sentiment because I don't think it matters that the people directly involved are all physically dead now; having faith means I believe in the immortal soul. Injustice is injustice, whether the people involved are physically dead or alive. This is also why historical cases of murder or other horrendous crimes are still relevant after the people involved are dead. This is where traditional ghost/spirit ideas come from: the idea that injustice and justice can transcend death (like the ghost of Hamlet's father seeking justice beyond the grave - with disastrous consequences!).

I came across scripture that I felt answered why history is relevant and should be remembered accurately. My concern is that since corona-virus a lot has come out about historical injustices; it became more vocal during and after the pandemic. I wonder if it's spiritually linked to our collective forgetfulness?

  • Deuteronomy 9:
"Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them." (New International Version).

"Only take care, and keep your soul diligently, lest you forget the things that your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. Make them known to your children and your children’s children." (English Standard Version).

This is why we have Remembrance: "if a nation forgets the true source of its success (the "Lord God of Hosts" and His "ancient sacrifice" of "a humble and contrite heart") – its military or material possessions will be insufficient in times of war."

Recent (more vocal than ever before) revelations about history, since corona-virus, have shown me that we don't remember the whole truth because history gets sanitised by the human victors - and we unquestioningly accept that version because it makes us feel good and on the winning side (who wants to be defeated and be losers?).

But I believe only God knows the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So does God (not the human victors) have the real victory and glory? And is the truth beginning to come out now?

Inspectamus · 23/01/2023 05:51

Palmfrond · 04/01/2023 16:23

God, the creator, sustainer and destroyer of all universes, who knows the exact position and state of every grain of sand, every atom, every microbe, every elephant, mountain, toadstool, ocean, man and woman, needs to communicate with use by really oblique and obscure word games?

It’s idiotic. I’m sorry.

I do not think it's idiotic. There's scripture to support the idea that God can play with us using language - including really oblique and obscure word games that some of us will 'get' and some of us will not 'get' and some of us will consider 'getting' and others will dismiss entirely as 'idiotic'.

Are you familiar with The Tower of Babel?

"God disrupted the work by so confusing the language of the workers that they could no longer understand one another."

The "'pronunciation of Babel and balal (“to confuse”) led to the play on words in Genesis 11:9: 'Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth.'"

So it is possible.

We live in a fast paced world; the human world is probably at the fastest pace that it has ever been on earth. We have probably lost something valuable through the speed of our human-made lifestyles and not noticed what we have lost (and/or are losing) in the process because we have been too busy being busy. Day of rest was recommended for a reason...

Corona-virus pandemic slowed us all down and reduced us back to basics for a bit. We were reminded that we are mortal and no matter how many lockdowns we have, we sadly cannot create a vaccine to cure the mortal inevitable (death). And we cannot lockdown and stay at home forever either.

"For many in the modern Western world the transition from life to death has become a question of science.The ‘medicalisation’ of death and dying has led to it being seen as a problem to be dealt with by professionals and removed from everyday life.What are the ethics, the rights and wrongs, of this approach? Do we want death to be part of our lives, to embrace the dying and their wishes?Or are we happy to think about it only when we have to?" - "Science and Ethics - death: the human experience" exhibitions.bristolmuseums.org.uk/death/science-ethics/

Reckoning with our mortality feels more like a religious, philosophical and spiritual practice, I think. Before the corona-virus, I think we had increasingly not been reckoning with mortal fate enough because it has connotations with things we think are 'out-dated' or 'old-fashioned' or 'esoteric' like religion, spirituality and philosophy. And yet, death is a certainty and does not get old or outdated; Death is immortal.

More of us have had thinking time since the pandemic and lockdowns. Time for people like me to think about God and ask if he had something to do with it? It's like God pressed the 'PAUSE' button to get us to stop and think for a bit...

I started from the point of the buzz word 'corona' being used to describe the virus and what the word corona means; corona is the Latin for crown. corona coupled with virus suggested something was wrong with the crown - and we need to look and delve a bit deeper.

Have you seen the Docudrama "Blood, Sex and Royalty" on Netflix?

The show deals with Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn, breaking away from Holy Rome and the creation of the Church of England (and a lot more else!!). Before the Church of England was formed there was a belief that the Bible should only be in Latin and not in English (the power of language, again).

Corona is Latin for the English word Crown. If everyone kept up with Latin then maybe it wouldn't seem like really oblique and obscure word games.

Inspectamus · 23/01/2023 07:00

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 18:43

@Inspecto I mean this kindly, but you are going off on a tangent and it doesn't sound healthy. As faretheewell pointed out, what can be gained from all this speculation and conjecture?

Had a think. What can be gained? Good question - you got me soul searching!

Firstly, it's not entirely speculation and conjecture - it's open mindedness to learning things we don't know and the process of investigating (that's how we find things out). A lot of it is recorded history too - we just don't know it well enough.

Ignorance can be bliss, but that's not the same as peace and informed trust. I associate ignorance with blind truth, injustice and unfairness - the ungodly things that makes life harder in the long run and in the end.

What is to be gained from deeper delving: truth and honesty, which enables informed trust, peace, fairness and justice in the crown (corona). Wisdom is usually a Godly virtue, isn't it?

I was surprised when this crown jewel came up again in Prince Harry's memoir too:

"Throughout that morning my eye kept going to the top of Gan-Gan's coffin, where they'd set the crown. Its three thousand diamonds and jewelled cross winked in the spring sunlight. At the centre of the cross was a diamond the size of a cricket ball. Not just a diamond, actually, the Great Diamond of the World, a 105-karat monster called the Koh-i-Noor. Largest diamond ever seen by human eyes. "Acquired" by the British Empire at its zenith. Stolen, some thought. I'd heard it was mesmerising, and I'd heard it was cursed. Men fought for it, died for it, and thus the curse was said to be masculine.
Only women were permitted to wear it."

That is coming from a royal who is the 5th in line to the throne and crown (corona).

I don't think this should be ignored. A stolen diamond on the crown is bad ('The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one's neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men's labor.')

But a stolen 'Great Diamond of the World' on the holy crown must be really really really really bad.

This 'stolen' diamond issue is all on top of Charles and and Camilla's infamous adultery (Exodus 20:14: 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery'). I am concerned the coronation of an adulterous couple, Charles and Camilla, risks undermining the legitimacy of God's Ten Commandments - and it matters because they're supposed to be representing God as 'Defenders of the Faith' and Head of the Church of England.

God might have mercy and forgiveness for one broken commandment, but more than one might be taking the mickey out of the Ten Commandments, especially by a couple who want a religious coronation ceremony on the world stage with all the pomp and pageantry that goes with the crown.

I think they need to establish if 'Great Diamond of the World' is stolen or not. If it is stolen, then they need to make amends. I'm concerned because I don't think they care enough (until it's too late) to stop and think about making amends. Old sins have long shadows; old indiscretions can continue to have consequences well into the future. And if there is really a curse and "the curse was said to be masculine", then it seems obvious that Charles needs to be vigilant or at least find out more.

faretheewell · 23/01/2023 07:59

@Inspectamus, I think the importance of remembrance is so past mistakes are not repeated. We learn from other's mistakes. However, for our own peace of mind, at the very least, we should forgive - as Christ did.

And with the warnings, that we have been told to come, what are individual Christians told to do?

"45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge oservants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:45-51 NIV)

"Psalm 91
1
Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High
 will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.[a]
2
I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
 my God, in whom I trust.”"

James 1:5 (New International Version)
"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."

So my answer, as a Christian, to the warnings or indeed anything that worries you is to seek God and rest (your mind primarily) in Him. Where is God's presence found? In praise, in prayer, in His word, in His sacraments and let's not forget where love is.

Though, practically, if there are any other actions to be taken, I cannot tell you @Inspectamus. I'd be interested to know what you think.🙂

faretheewell · 23/01/2023 08:23

I mean mistakes in history - we learn from other's mistakes in history. In our own lives we can learn from our own mistakes too!

Inspectamus · 23/01/2023 10:49

@faretheewell "I think the importance of remembrance is so past mistakes are not repeated. We learn from other's mistakes."

In theory. But I am saying remembrance is more complicated than we give it credit. And selective remembrance is really about propaganda and agenda, not humble learning from mistakes.

Learning is not frivolous. We have to work hard at learning - learning is not easy. There is a process too. In academia, for example, we study - and then we get tested by an independent assessor to check the learning. I see God as the teacher and independent assessor. So, God is the Judge of whether or not we learn from mistakes and what grade we get, not us.

What happens when a wrongdoing is glorified as good because there was profit from it?
In that case the wrongdoing will get repeated. There will be no learning from mistakes, because they're not viewed as wrong by the wrongdoer if there was a benefit to their wrongful actions.

Example: if it were not for the ghost of Hamlet's father then no one would be the wiser about the injustice that happened to the dead King. Hamlet's uncle, Claudius, must know murdering his brother and taking his wife is wrong - but Claudius doesn't view it as a mistake because he got what he wanted through murder (and coveting his brother's wife) - and he got away with it and without any evidence there's nothing anyone else can do about it other than worship him as King.

Mistakes can only come to light when there is a voice of resistance to offer the other side of the story. Claudius is not thinking the ghost of Hamlet's father is even possible. But the play shows us that the ghost is the only way the truth can be learned. God, as playwright and stage director, permits the ghost to enter the stage because the ghost is the source of truth - and a ghost of his father (rather than a messenger) is also more emotive and powerful way to capture Hamlet's attention and imagination too.

"...but know, thou noble youth,
The serpent that did sting thy Fathers life,
Now wears his crown."
Ghost of Hamlet's Father

If I were adapting Hamlet for a play in the modern British Royal Family, then I can imagine the ghost of Princess Diana saying something similar to Prince Harry:

"...but know, thou noble youth,
The serpent that did sting thy Mothers life,
Now wears her crown."

(The sting is more subtle and has a different, but equally powerful and valid meaning, in this case).

Camilla must have known that it was wrong to interfere with Diana's marriage - she never gave the royal marriage a chance because she wanted Charles for herself. Adultery was Camilla's means to the crown - and "Now wears [Diana's] crown". Why would Camilla have reason to believe Adultery was wrong or a mistake if it result in her coronation?

"However, for our own peace of mind, at the very least, we should forgive - as Christ did."

To forgive or not to forgive, that is the question.

I have become more cynical about what we know about Christ because scripture has its limitations. Christ set a foundation, but we are supposed to do some work ourselves too. What we know about Christ is not first hand - the gospels were recorded second-hand in scripture a long time after Christ passed, which is why there are discrepancies in some of the details between the gospels. Scriptures are great guides, but only to a point because there is more in the world around us too and we should not be ignorant.

In the example above, should Hamlet simply forgive Claudius and his mother and move on as if it was acceptable what happened to his father? He would have peace of mind that way, but he can't forgive without a process in which forgiveness is earned.

Forgiveness must be measured because it is a valuable and finite resource.

And there's a fine line between revenge and justice, which is why Hamlet struggles to know what to do.

So my answer, as a Christian, to the warnings or indeed anything that worries you is to seek God and rest (your mind primarily) in Him. Where is God's presence found? In praise, in prayer, in His word, in His sacraments and let's not forget where love is.

I have found God's presence asking me to investigate further. To learn. Think about it. Consider the evidence. Weigh things up. And not be ignorant. I feel that God wants to know what I think and feel, as if I am on jury service to God as the Judge. Judges need the support of their jury too. The people, as jury, are allowed to give a verdict too. But the people, as jury, must also be informed and act with impartiality, honesty and fairness. In the end, God decides as Judge, but that doesn't mean God is not interested in what people, as jury, have to say.

I think it is appalling that the people have allowed Camilla's spin doctors to get away with charming them into accepting her as Queen. Spin doctors are not hired to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

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