Are Court Seers/Oracles/Astrologers still used today?

[Inspecto]

Throughout history there appears to be a Court Seer/Oracle/Astrologer that Kings and Queens or other leaders turn to for guidance. And their insights were taken seriously in decision making too.

Documentary on Netflix suggests the blood moon during the fall of Constantinople spelled omens. Heeding these astrological omens influenced Ottoman leader Mehmed II’s decision making, leading to his side successfully conquering Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.

I think it’s fascinating that an astrological omen was identified, taken seriously in decision making by a leader and acted on with the predicted results coming true.

Do modern day leaders (kings or queens or emperors or empresses) still turn to omen and spiritual sign readers? Or has that art been lost or dismissed in favour of something else?

Well you tell me. If you know your own history so much can you explain why there’s so much global fuss made about one single diamond called the Koh-i-Noor?

The Koh-i-Noor diamond was taken from Lahore, which was the capital of the Punjabi kingdom. But the Punjab was partitioned when India got independence in 1947. Lahore is now in Pakistan.

The True Story of the Koh-i-Noor Diamond—and Why the British Won’t Give It Back
A star of London’s Crown Jewels, the Indian gem has a bloody history of colonial conquest.

What’s the real deal with this diamond? Is there really a curse on it? Which God is being referred to in the wording of the curse attached to the diamond? How can it be a Christian God if the diamond didn’t come from a Christian country?

Kohinoor belongs to Lord Jagannath, says Odisha organisation, seeks return from England The Sena claims that the Kohinoor belongs to Lord Jagannath - the deity of the famous Puri temple.
The Maharajah of Lahore, Ranjit Singh, apparently bequeathed it to the god on his deathbed.

I really don’t think the British crown/corona should have been messing around in this divine matter, especially if they’re only a “constitutional monarchy” themselves. Knowing one’s own limitations is important How can a Christian God reasonably expected to defend and protect them now?

*Knowing one’s own limitations is important. How can a Christian God be reasonably expected to defend and protect them now?

The census tells the Christian God what he needs to know about faith in this country.

The monarch is technically a religious leader… Head of the Church of England and defender of the faith.

You think I should be able to explain whether there is a curse on a a diamond because it came from India and I have Indian heritage? 🙄

No.

But you claimed to know the history and it sounded like you believe you know it inside out (hence why you said “don't really need a lecture“ - I wasn’t intending to lecture, I was just not assuming any prior knowledge because I don’t know you or anyone else reading at all). So I made a reasonable assumption based on what you said that you were like an authority on the history and that you might have an informed opinion.

I apologise if I misunderstood your claim.

Me knowing my history and believing whether a curse is real are two very very different things

This isn’t all about you though. It’s a general talking point.

The history and the curse are tightly and intrinsically interwoven. The diamond’s bloody history and fighting between men has informed the belief there’s a valid possibility to the curse. The history and curse go hand in hand. How else can anyone make an informed opinion about a curse without knowing the history that comes with it?

It’s easy to dismiss the curse because it sounds fantastical and silly. But when you read the history it starts to suggest there might be something to it. This is why the royal family haven’t ignored the valid possibility.

Koh-i-Noor: Curse or Blessing?

It's not about me but you asked me so I gave you my answer. You seem to assume because I am Indian I should know if the curse is real or not. That skips over the whole subject of whether I even believe in curses. the fact that you automatically assume someone with Indian heritage believes in curses is, well let's go with interesting....

@Letitrainletitrainletitrain

No. You’re misinterpreting and misrepresenting again. And I do not want an argument.

You said you knew the history as if you were an authority on all history’s complex ins and outs. I felt it was rude to say “don’t really need a lecture” because it’s as if you expect me to magically know anything about you. I wasn’t intending to lecture - I was just not assuming prior knowledge on the part of a reader because I don’t know the reader (I was trying to be courteous and kind when sharing books and other resources too).

This isn’t about all rumoured curses either. This is a general talking point about one very high-profile crown/corona jewel diamond with a very specific curse that is well known and believed to be very powerful.

There’s even experts who dedicated time and effort to research and write a whole book dedicated to this one particular “curse” diamond. That’s how powerful this potential curse is - it and it’s own book!

Koh-i-Noor: The History of the World's Most Infamous Diamond

If there is a book about it then I suggest you read that

Because you asked me this:

What’s the real deal with this diamond? Is there really a curse on it?

Literally because I said I had Indian heritage. because of course all people with Indian heritage are exotic and other and believe curses etc

I'm finished with this conversation now though because many of your inferences in the thread have been colonial, ethnocentric and egotistical and you have some very wierd world views that I have no interest in debating futher.

For a Christian you are very obsessed with the supernatural and things that border on witchcraft.

@Inspecto, speaking of curses this is pertinent to this thread and a point worth remembering, I think.

"10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." (Galatians 3)

So we are redeemed from the curse of the law by faith in Christ.🙂

@Letitrainletitrainletitrain ”What’s the real deal with this diamond? Is there really a curse on it?“

These are general questions about this one diamond to ask of anyone and anyone can have an opinion about it. This is a public forum and anyone can join in to answer and contribute. There will be a wide range of opinion. But I am more interested in the opinion of those who know the history and have an informed opinion.

The book shows these are general questions about this one diamond. Queen Victoria (a Christian) was worried enough to ask about the curse. Lord Dalhousie was pragmatic and essentially thought the idea of a curse on the Koh-I-Noor was nonsense - but he also wasn’t around long enough to find out either way (history is very very very long).

I felt Lord Dalhousie was being dismissive of Indian heritage when he dismissed the curse. It’s disrespectful and rude of another cultural belief to say there is no curse on the Koh-I-Noor diamond when the claim it does have a curse comes from Hindu scriptures (they believe it’s the Syamantaka gem). I believe it’s important to respect other faiths and beliefs.

I think witchcraft exists, but it is repressed and suppressed. In the history book, it says the Koh-I-Noor diamond was brought to England on a ship called Medea. If you are well read you will know that Medea is famously known as a powerful sorceress and into witchcraft.

I want to know why a Victorian Britain, a Christian country, had a HMS ship named after a well known sorceress into witchcraft?

You forgot to add "from Greek mythology" to the end of your last sentence.

@Inspecto,

I want to know why a Victorian Britain, a Christian country, had a HMS ship named after a well known sorceress into witchcraft?

Romanticism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

Generally, mythology is considered one component or aspect of religion.

I think you’ve got to be careful dismissing mythology just because it’s not practiced widely as a main religion anymore. Mythology was once a real religion for people too. I think of mythology as dormant, so it’s not disappeared or dead entirely, religious mythology can erupt like a volcano given the right set of circumstances.

And I have heard people refer to Christianity as mythology too. It’s not nice because it seeks to minimise and dismiss religion and the divine.

It still stands that Victorian Britain, a Christian country, had a HMS ship named after a well known powerful sorceress, Medea, known to be into witchcraft. Why choose Medea? She didn’t even have a ship named after her in Greek mythology - that was called ‘Jason and the Argonauts’.

And what happened on HMS Medea as it brought the Koh-I-Noor to England should have been a pretty strong sign and message - but I feel it was ignored.

The curse of the Koh-i-noor was said to have struck the British crew who first brought it to England in 1850. The HMS Medea was first stricken with cholera, then almost blown out of the water by hostile cannon, and finally battered by typhoon.

That’s not a good omen. I think the divine signs and messages were all there from the start, but ignored.

Prophecy is not the same as divination.

Prophets didn't go seeking signs from God, as I remember. They were often dragged kicking and screaming into their role.

We all seek discernment, wisdom and insight.

It's not the same as scouring the media for coincidences that buttress our interests and preferences.

HMS Medea.

That translates as:

Her or His Majesty’s Ship Medea.

That is a royal ship. Crown/corona again.

Medea was royalty herself (daughter of King Aeetes) and believed to be semi-mortal because her grandfather was the sun god Helios. There’s the Sun and Corona theme re-emerging again…

@Inspecto, right. But I'm failing to see the relevance in terms of a relationship to God and how the information helps you do His will in terms of the right course of action or what can be done with the information. I mean, you might have revelation on that point, that you have not shared, but again I would ask which way round your 'insight' is coming. Is it an intellectual endeavour that you are striving towards or does it just occur to you? Personally, I have had had very meaningful dreams which included a lot of religious symbolism and this has informed my decision making but I wasn't striving to have a dream or keeping track of every dream I had. They just stood out quite obviously (one involved Christ being crucified) another two involved preparing meat for consumption, one involved perfume, for example.

Where is the discernment, wisdom and insight into the koh-I-Noor diamond?

Was it wise to declare war on a sovereign state that had been friends? Yes, the British side discerned that the Punjabi sovereign state was vulnerable with a little boy and his mother on the throne. But did they use their discernment for good/righteousness or for bad/evil?

And from a Christian perspective, this should be telling:

“When Dalhousie made it clear that every last coin and trinket was to be sent back to England, and not a penny of gain spent on the natives, Login felt decidedly uneasy. Not only did it jar with his sense of Christian charity and fairness, he also harboured doubts about whether Dalhousie had had any legal or moral justification to start the second Anglo-Sikh War in the first place.“

If God grants wisdom, discernment and insight, then there’s a moral responsibility to use it justly.

What is the just war theory?
www.gotquestions.org/just-war-theory.html

Where is the discernment, wisdom and insight into the koh-I-Noor diamond?

How could we possibly say from the outside looking in? And people are flawed - perhaps mistake were made and regrets were there but they were only confessed before God and not publicly. The people directly involved will all be dead now.

Thanks, I would guess you have more liberal leanings than me! I've never heard of a Novena prayer - is it a Roman Catholic thing?
The local Methodist, Baptist and CofE churches regularly meet up and work together, which is great.
It isn't my place to pass judgement on anyone - that's for God alone, but I think it's important to recognise that and not over emphasis the love and mercy either. One look at Jeramiah is enough to confirm that and Jesus displayed His righteous anger, whip in hand, in the Temple.

This one seems spiritually serious and too significant to be ignorant about. Spiritually, I feel like someone, somewhere, (I hate to say spirit or ghost, but there you go) wants their side of the story heard (and I think that’s the fair thing to offer - looking in and understanding, rather than wilful blindness to what seems like clear injustice that has been brushed under the carpet and trodden all over).

The people are dead, as you say, but the diamond is not. The diamond is forever.

If that was an unjust declaration of war then the spoils of that unjust war, which the Koh-I-Noor loot represents, are also forever. The defeated losers have lost forever.

There have been some very public requests from the injured party for the British crown/corona to acknowledge mistakes and regrets. It is possible that private confessions were made to God, but that’s not helpful or considerate to the injured party. There have been no public acknowledgment of any wrongdoing, to the contrary the royal family showcased the koh-I-Noor diamond as the centrepiece on the Queen Mother’s crown/corona - tourists from all over the world are expected to pay money to see this world famous diamond. Financial profit has been made at the expense of the misfortunes of others.

The repercussions of an unjust war are serious and painful - and even worse when people look on and don’t care and behave laissez-faire.

What is the just war theory? “The theory of a “just war” is not exclusively Christian. Versions of this idea were common in Greek and Roman civilization. However, spirituality strongly influences how just war theory is applied. Pagan definitions of a just war typically considered expansion and revenge as acceptable motivations. Some faiths, such as Jainism, adhere to absolute pacifism. Others, such as Islam, were founded by men who frequently waged wars of aggression. Biblical Christianity presents an approach to war significantly more nuanced than that of most other religions.”

@Inspecto I mean this kindly, but you are going off on a tangent and it doesn't sound healthy. As faretheewell pointed out, what can be gained from all this speculation and conjecture?

Spiritually, I feel like someone, somewhere, (I hate to say spirit or ghost, but there you go) wants their side of the story heard (and I think that’s the fair thing to offer - looking in and understanding, rather than wilful blindness to what seems like clear injustice that has been brushed under the carpet and trodden all over).

The feelings of ghosts and their injustices, essentially restless spirits is something I would be and am very wary of. It could easily stray into mediumship and haunting. I would suggest praying on it and seeking God, and His will, unity with Him for direction in a situation such as this, for someone of faith. Don't strive for meaning - you'll end up confused. Pray, rest in Him and let it come to you.

I've never heard of a Novena prayer - is it a Roman Catholic thing?

Yes, Novena prayers are Roman Catholic.

It isn't my place to pass judgement on anyone - that's for God alone, but I think it's important to recognise that and not over emphasis the love and mercy either. One look at Jeramiah is enough to confirm that and Jesus displayed His righteous anger, whip in hand, in the Temple.

Yes, I know. 🙂 And I do and have in the past issued quite firm challenges to people - with, on occasions, quite amazing results! 😉