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Philosophy/religion

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Are Court Seers/Oracles/Astrologers still used today?

227 replies

Inspecto · 02/01/2023 01:37

Throughout history there appears to be a Court Seer/Oracle/Astrologer that Kings and Queens or other leaders turn to for guidance. And their insights were taken seriously in decision making too.

Documentary on Netflix suggests the blood moon during the fall of Constantinople spelled omens. Heeding these astrological omens influenced Ottoman leader Mehmed II’s decision making, leading to his side successfully conquering Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.

I think it’s fascinating that an astrological omen was identified, taken seriously in decision making by a leader and acted on with the predicted results coming true.

Do modern day leaders (kings or queens or emperors or empresses) still turn to omen and spiritual sign readers? Or has that art been lost or dismissed in favour of something else?

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NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 01:47

I wasn't meaning to oversimplify; I just don't understand the obsessing over the corona/virus/charles link you seem to have made and that's the only thing that I could think you meant.

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 05/01/2023 01:50

Wow God not only had time to organise a worldwide pandemic just because of a coronation on a small island, he also organises Netflixes scheduling.

Meanwhile Charles isn't even the only king to marry after divorce and the less said about adultry in the royal family history the better

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 01:58

NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 01:47

I wasn't meaning to oversimplify; I just don't understand the obsessing over the corona/virus/charles link you seem to have made and that's the only thing that I could think you meant.

I just have a wretched hunch. Intuition is just that. But I believe gut feelings exist for a reason, so at least I know I didn’t ignore it.

Anyway, I’m going to step back from this ‘is corona god-related?’ question (with the exception of possibly writing to the Archbishop of Canterbury at Lambeth Palace, knowing it’s probably a waste of my time, headspace and effort because he’s likely to ignore me).

As I said, I’ll defer this one’s for Almighty God. Too big for me…

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Inspecto · 05/01/2023 02:21

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 05/01/2023 01:50

Wow God not only had time to organise a worldwide pandemic just because of a coronation on a small island, he also organises Netflixes scheduling.

Meanwhile Charles isn't even the only king to marry after divorce and the less said about adultry in the royal family history the better

The empire on which the sun never sets - do you mean this small island? Devil is in the detail.
(@Vincitveritas you mentioned something upthread, I think, that the sun has always had a corona… interesting, another link).

For all we know, if corona is god-related, it’s possible that another god might be the one with the grievance. That would be mean needing protection from the Christian God like never before. Is there something we should know about in the history about relations with the Asia?

“Meanwhile Charles isn't even the only king to marry after divorce and the less said about adultry in the royal family history the better”

You don’t understand. This is the first time the Church of England will crown (corona word again) a divorced man who wishes to be an earthly king - and there’s more to this with the famous adultery with Camilla who also seeks to be crowned as the Queen Consort and sit alongside him as Head of the Church of England. (Don’t get me wrong - Camilla does look like a lot of fun and seems lighthearted - but that doesn’t mean she’s worthy of the crown).

Royal author Anthony Holden wrote: 'The Church of England has never crowned a divorced man as King, let alone one who has publicly confessed to adultery – with the relevant woman expecting to be crowned Queen Consort.“

Henry VIII was already King when he created the Church of England. His original legitimacy came from Rome, I think.

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NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 02:24

If the Christian god exists, no other ones can.

merrymelodies · 05/01/2023 02:41

Didn't Diana consult an astrologer/astrologist?

NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 02:43

And look what happened to her....

My2pence2day · 05/01/2023 02:45

Astrologers are used in India by some people for matchmaking purposes to see if a couple will be suitable

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 03:10

NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 02:24

If the Christian god exists, no other ones can.

That’s not true. Then can exist. The shows they almost certainly do co-exist. But…

The 10 Commandments – The 1st: “I am the Lord your God … You shall have no other gods before me.”

In saying that, God is also acknowledging there are other gods, but he’s commanding his people to make him the only one for them. That’s a condition; terms of the contract and covenant.

In the 10 plagues of Egypt, God asserts “religious power in the battle between Egypt’s gods and the god of the Hebrews.”

There are other gods. God recognises that. But he demonstrates in the bible that he is more powerful than them. He’s the God of gods, if you like.

It gets complicated if one of those other gods raise a grievance - and the grievance has merit. God must be seen as just and fair before the other gods to maintain integrity in his contracts with them too. Complex diplomatic business, I would imagine.

Anyway, enough for now.

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NewBootsAndRanty · 05/01/2023 03:22

They're idols/false idols/false gods though. The Christian god isn't the god of gods, but the "one true god", if you're subscribing to that particular faith.

1 Kings 18 describes how the prophet Elijah tries to convince king Ahab whose land suffers from famine of abandoning worship of Baal and Asherah in favor of the Lord. He assembles all the prophets of Baal and Asherah on Mount Carmel and tells them: "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." He challenges the prophets to a duel. The prophets whose god can burn meat pieces from a bull is the true God. Baal's and Asherah's prophets fail to set fire to the meat, but Elijah's god succeeds.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 07:39

@Vincitveritas, indeed. But this has been true for a long time...centuries. I'm not asleep! Whether there are signs or not I will seek to draw closer to God and hope to bring other people along with me too!
However, I do think an over emphasis on the fire and brimstone type preaching rather than on God's love and forgiveness can hurt and offend already hurting people further. The warnings, for me, serve to stir up people who are maybe complacent but they should be stirred up to love not shouting judgements at others IMO.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 08:03

I would like to share this Novena prayer with other Christians on this thread. 🙂🙏

The Unity Prayer
My adorable Jesus,
May our feet journey together.
May our hands gather in unity.
May our hearts beat in unison.
May our souls be in harmony.
May our thoughts be as one.
May our ears listen to the silence together.
May our glances profoundly penetrate each other.
May our lips pray together to gain mercy from the Eternal Father.
(novenaprayer.com/2022/08/02/the-unity-prayer/)

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 10:30

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 07:39

@Vincitveritas, indeed. But this has been true for a long time...centuries. I'm not asleep! Whether there are signs or not I will seek to draw closer to God and hope to bring other people along with me too!
However, I do think an over emphasis on the fire and brimstone type preaching rather than on God's love and forgiveness can hurt and offend already hurting people further. The warnings, for me, serve to stir up people who are maybe complacent but they should be stirred up to love not shouting judgements at others IMO.

I appreciate what you're saying but there are an awful lot of people (Christians included) who are asleep and a bit of fire & brimstone may be the only thing to shake them awake at this late hour! A third of the Bible is Prophecy, much of it about the last days, for a reason.

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 10:49

@Inspecto As NewBootsAndRanty said, there is no other God (big G) - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Yahweh, King of the Universe, is the One True God, all other gods (small g) are false.
As Psalm 115 puts it, "Why do the nations say, “Where is their God?” Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. But their idols are silver and gold, made by human hands. They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but cannot see. They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but cannot smell. They have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but cannot walk, nor can they utter a sound with their throats."
Don't forget what happened when the people of Israel decided to worship Baal and Moloch. It is written, "Pay attention to all that I have said to you, and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let it be heard on your lips." Exodus 23:13.

The 'new' Ten Commandments are out on thd world stage, with support from the Pope, other religious leaders and the UN.

Have you heard a rumour that King Charles may be the AC? I don't buy this; he may have made some silly mistakes in the past but he's not evil.

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 10:59

@Inspecto From the Nasa website:

'What Is the Sun's Corona?

The Short Answer:
The Sun’s corona is the outermost part of the Sun’s atmosphere. The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be viewed during a total solar eclipse.
Our Sun is surrounded by a jacket of gases called an atmosphere. The corona is the outermost part of the Sun's atmosphere.

The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be seen during a total solar eclipse.'

Nothing to see here...

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 11:46

I appreciate what you're saying but there are an awful lot of people (Christians included) who are asleep and a bit of fire & brimstone may be the only thing to shake them awake at this late hour! A third of the Bible is Prophecy, much of it about the last days, for a reason.

@Vincitveritas, and my response is to continue praying (the prayer I posted earlier is one of the prayers I pray regularly) and exercise my faith. Which of course leads to action as faith without it is 'dead'.

"Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (James 2:14-17 New International Version)
Pray and have faith for unity with God and that we will do His will. See His will at work through Jesus. He has the power and desire to lead us! 🙏

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 11:52

@faretheewell I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Who are you hoping will unite? You seem to be implying I don't pray or do good works.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 12:00

@Vincitveritas, not my intention to imply anything of the sort. However, we all can seek a more perfect unity with God and the church certainly could be in more harmonious unity. It's something I pray for continuously. Any if you have unity with God the need for prophecy diminishes.

"8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." (1Corinthians 13)

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 05/01/2023 12:02

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 02:21

The empire on which the sun never sets - do you mean this small island? Devil is in the detail.
(@Vincitveritas you mentioned something upthread, I think, that the sun has always had a corona… interesting, another link).

For all we know, if corona is god-related, it’s possible that another god might be the one with the grievance. That would be mean needing protection from the Christian God like never before. Is there something we should know about in the history about relations with the Asia?

“Meanwhile Charles isn't even the only king to marry after divorce and the less said about adultry in the royal family history the better”

You don’t understand. This is the first time the Church of England will crown (corona word again) a divorced man who wishes to be an earthly king - and there’s more to this with the famous adultery with Camilla who also seeks to be crowned as the Queen Consort and sit alongside him as Head of the Church of England. (Don’t get me wrong - Camilla does look like a lot of fun and seems lighthearted - but that doesn’t mean she’s worthy of the crown).

Royal author Anthony Holden wrote: 'The Church of England has never crowned a divorced man as King, let alone one who has publicly confessed to adultery – with the relevant woman expecting to be crowned Queen Consort.“

Henry VIII was already King when he created the Church of England. His original legitimacy came from Rome, I think.

I do understand that its the first time the church of England will crown a divorced man (I understand the church that crowned Henry 8th isn't exactly what we would consider the church of england)

It's just unlike you I don't see Britain as an empire, I don't see it as so important that it was okay for other churches to crown other divorced Kings without pandemics but suddenly the UK does it and thousands of people die.

the sheer level of ego in thinking that what's happening in a tiny part of the world is so globally and divinely important is not something I strive for.

Vincitveritas · 05/01/2023 12:11

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 12:00

@Vincitveritas, not my intention to imply anything of the sort. However, we all can seek a more perfect unity with God and the church certainly could be in more harmonious unity. It's something I pray for continuously. Any if you have unity with God the need for prophecy diminishes.

"8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." (1Corinthians 13)

Yes, as I've said before unity would be great in an ideal world, but realistically is not achievable this side of heaven sadly. Are you party of the Unity or Unitarian/Universalist Church by any chance?

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 12:18

@faretheewell
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James 2:14

This passage you posted has answered a concern I had about the late Queen. She held the title ‘defender of the faith’ but I see little evidence of her deeds or actions in defending (or protecting) the faith.

The census numbers shows that in her own country, at the start of her 70-year reign the Faith numbers were higher and the official religion, Christianity, was secure- but by the end of her reign, the numbers dropped significantly and the official religion is insecure. Christianity now minority religion in England and Wales

I think it’s significant this is happening at a time when Christianity under global threat due to persecution. I see no reason why the late Queen couldn’t have raised greater awareness about the faith being under threat in her own (Christian) country because not many people realise - and she was in a privileged position as ‘defender of the faith’ and was very popular with the people.

I have had concerns the adoration of the late Queen may be viewed, by God, as a form of idolatry. The people loved her, but had forgotten God in the process to the point they didn’t think God existed or that God didn’t really matter because it’s a ‘constitutional’ monarchy. After a few discussions on another thread, I now see the con in constitutional.

The faith is under threat. But there were no deeds to protect or defend the faith in its own time of need.

I think God’s fire and brimstone is not used lightly. Because, as you say, the heart of the faith is love and forgiveness - but love and forgiveness are gentle, sensitive and fragile things that need protection and must not be treated carelessly. This is why God is about law, order and justice - it is to protect and defend the faith in love and forgiveness.

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faretheewell · 05/01/2023 12:23

Are you party of the Unity or Unitarian/Universalist Church by any chance?

No, I was Christened C of E and would simply describe myself as Christian. I am currently with a non denominational church but read and share in prayer with the Roman Catholic Church, Methodist and other denominations as I feel called to do. 🙂

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 12:33

Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 05/01/2023 12:02

I do understand that its the first time the church of England will crown a divorced man (I understand the church that crowned Henry 8th isn't exactly what we would consider the church of england)

It's just unlike you I don't see Britain as an empire, I don't see it as so important that it was okay for other churches to crown other divorced Kings without pandemics but suddenly the UK does it and thousands of people die.

the sheer level of ego in thinking that what's happening in a tiny part of the world is so globally and divinely important is not something I strive for.

Britain no longer has an empire, true. But there are other countries that were colonised that have grievances from the days when Britain was an empire.

Britain’s small island wealth has come from empire at the expense of other peoples and other countries and other faiths all over the world. But we on this small island have forgotten the true source of our wealth was the misfortunes of others.

It’s uncomfortable reading, but shows there’s a lot of ignorance about our own history. But there are loads of books that came out about this during the Corona pandemic - and that got me thinking too.

The famous one is Empireland: How Imperialism Has Shaped Modern Britain

In his brilliantly illuminating new book Sathnam Sanghera demonstrates how so much of what we consider to be modern Britain is actually rooted in our imperial past. In prose that is, at once, both clear-eyed and full of acerbic wit, Sanghera shows how our past is everywhere: from how we live to how we think, from the foundation of the NHS to the nature of our racism, from our distrust of intellectuals in public life to the exceptionalism that imbued the campaign for Brexit and the government's early response to the Covid crisis. And yet empire is a subject, weirdly hidden from view.

The British Empire ran for centuries and covered vast swathes of the world. It is, as Sanghera reveals, fundamental to understanding Britain. However, even among those who celebrate the empire there seems to be a desire not to look at it too closely - not to include the subject in our school history books, not to emphasize it too much in our favourite museums.

At a time of great division, when we are arguing about what it means to be British, Sanghera's book urges us to address this bewildering contradiction. For, it is only by stepping back and seeing where we really come from, that we can begin to understand who we are, and what unites us.

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Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 05/01/2023 13:36

Inspecto · 05/01/2023 12:33

Britain no longer has an empire, true. But there are other countries that were colonised that have grievances from the days when Britain was an empire.

Britain’s small island wealth has come from empire at the expense of other peoples and other countries and other faiths all over the world. But we on this small island have forgotten the true source of our wealth was the misfortunes of others.

It’s uncomfortable reading, but shows there’s a lot of ignorance about our own history. But there are loads of books that came out about this during the Corona pandemic - and that got me thinking too.

The famous one is Empireland: How Imperialism Has Shaped Modern Britain

In his brilliantly illuminating new book Sathnam Sanghera demonstrates how so much of what we consider to be modern Britain is actually rooted in our imperial past. In prose that is, at once, both clear-eyed and full of acerbic wit, Sanghera shows how our past is everywhere: from how we live to how we think, from the foundation of the NHS to the nature of our racism, from our distrust of intellectuals in public life to the exceptionalism that imbued the campaign for Brexit and the government's early response to the Covid crisis. And yet empire is a subject, weirdly hidden from view.

The British Empire ran for centuries and covered vast swathes of the world. It is, as Sanghera reveals, fundamental to understanding Britain. However, even among those who celebrate the empire there seems to be a desire not to look at it too closely - not to include the subject in our school history books, not to emphasize it too much in our favourite museums.

At a time of great division, when we are arguing about what it means to be British, Sanghera's book urges us to address this bewildering contradiction. For, it is only by stepping back and seeing where we really come from, that we can begin to understand who we are, and what unites us.

I'm part Indian/Pakistani so I don't really need a lecture of the colonial attitude of Britain and the impact of the British empire. And I am not ignorant on my history, my history isn't just British history.

I'm just confused how you can condemn colonialist attitudes and then still think a tiny ceremony on a small island is important enough to condemn thousands of people around the world to die. You show extremely colonialist ethnocentric attitudes in your posts.

faretheewell · 05/01/2023 13:51

I think it might be useful to consider how Jesus challenged leadership in his day. He didn't mount a political campaign, when asked about paying taxes to the Romans he complied and God provided. He did challenge religious leaders in their judgement of others on several occasions and mixed with and healed people considered by them to be outcasts/sinful.

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