Are Court Seers/Oracles/Astrologers still used today?

[Inspecto]

Throughout history there appears to be a Court Seer/Oracle/Astrologer that Kings and Queens or other leaders turn to for guidance. And their insights were taken seriously in decision making too.

Documentary on Netflix suggests the blood moon during the fall of Constantinople spelled omens. Heeding these astrological omens influenced Ottoman leader Mehmed II’s decision making, leading to his side successfully conquering Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.

I think it’s fascinating that an astrological omen was identified, taken seriously in decision making by a leader and acted on with the predicted results coming true.

Do modern day leaders (kings or queens or emperors or empresses) still turn to omen and spiritual sign readers? Or has that art been lost or dismissed in favour of something else?

God, the creator, sustainer and destroyer of all universes, who knows the exact position and state of every grain of sand, every atom, every microbe, every elephant, mountain, toadstool, ocean, man and woman, needs to communicate with use by really oblique and obscure word games?

It’s idiotic. I’m sorry.

Well given that you seem to be the only one who had made the link between the corona virus and god seemingly being angry with the British royal family...

I did ask on another thread why God would sent a world wide pandemic just because of the British royal family but didn't get much of a response

It's a very egocentric, colonialist, ethnocentric view that God would send a global pandemic to kill millions of people because one man had an affair and got divorced.

I'm not averse to a bit of speculation. Generally speaking I believe we all interpret the world according to our own frame of reference. I'm a Christian, probably similar in my beliefs and understanding as FareTheeWell. I've agreed with her posts here so far.
I understand, process and manage myself, situations and complexities through a prism of my beliefs. I find it helpful.

Other people do similar- I don't need to claim that mine is the only effective prism and everyone else's is wrong.

I think OP looking in language for explanations of the will of God is not in itself invalid. I would say that the point of the established Christian church is to weigh up theories like OP's against existing knowledge and decide whether it's valid. They'd question some of her understanding of the scriptures I think.

If OP were to convince a sufficiently large number of people to agree with her, despite the disagreement of the established church, she could start a cult or a schism. Fun!

Individual revelations can be insightful. They're rarely of value to others though.

The corona pandemic definitely impacted mental health and stress (who wasn’t impacted?).

Corona times have been so profound, not just for me but for everyone. Something that profound got my attention and I felt it warranted some probing (maybe that was driven by fear too: if it is something God related then I don’t want to be on the wrong side of him. That’s all).

The scientific response made sense, of course, but was unsatisfactory too because it seemed small picture (the details losing sight of the bigger picture). It was like, ‘it is just a virus’, but I wanted to know why this one virus and why now? and was met with shoulder shrugging because they don’t know. Or, ‘it came from a bat’ and again I wondered why now when people have been eating wildlife for a very long time?

The lack of bigger picture questioning and ease of acceptance that this one virus (with a meaningful name ‘corona’, meaning crown) was causing a worldwide pandemic by chance and randomness only made me question more.

There were a lot of people asking if it was god-related. There’s a historical basis for that line of reasoning.

Where Is God in a Pandemic?

God, plagues and pestilence – what history can teach us about living through a pandemic

It was this who wants to be a millionaire style question to the Pope in this meme that got me thinking the answer must be D because it’s a display of power. God tends to be powerful (the other options, A, B, C, suggest weakness, powerlessness and apathy).

And the OP question here was wondering if there were still Court Astrologer/Seer/Oracle types who are better placed to answer more profound questions about these world-changing events? They would be the expert opinion if anything divine was going on, not scientists because it’s not their field of expertise.

No one, I feel, has addressed the bigger picture questions about the corona pandemic. But those questions are being asked and they are valid questions. If we have a crown and monarchy ‘by the grace of god’ that’s head of the church and uses the bible as a guidebook, then why are we ignoring that the bible shows is God capable of sending plagues and pestilence?

knowyourmeme.com/photos/1816316-covid-19-pandemic

And the OP question here was wondering if there were still Court Astrologer/Seer/Oracle types who are better placed to answer more profound questions about these world-changing events? They would be the expert opinion if anything divine was going on, not scientists because it’s not their field of expertise.

It might be a difference in your background but I, personally, would not look for evidence for the divine through consulting astrologers, seers or oracles. That seems more akin to Paganism to me.

As a Christian I seek and find God, through prayer, shared community, reading and meditation upon scriptures, praise, the Eucharist, plus beauty and complexity within the natural world.

The scientific response made sense, of course, but was unsatisfactory too because it seemed small picture (the details losing sight of the bigger picture). It was like, ‘it is just a virus’, but I wanted to know why this one virus and why now? and was met with shoulder shrugging because they don’t know. Or, ‘it came from a bat’ and again I wondered why now when people have been eating wildlife for a very long time?

The lack of bigger picture questioning and ease of acceptance that this one virus (with a meaningful name ‘corona’, meaning crown) was causing a worldwide pandemic by chance and randomness only made me question more.

Human brains are really bad at understanding chance and randomness, not powerful enough to comprehend a system as complex as life on planet Earth even if we had access to all the information necessary, and are predisposed to be unsatisfied with explanations which don't involve someone or something choosing an action.

All these things make perfect sense if you think of our brains as survival tools rather than truth-finding tools, and if you consider that it's almost always safer to act as if things that happen were done by someone/something for a reason. But these tendencies don't necessarily lead us to see the world as it actually is; they can lead to us misattributing things that happen, looking for conspiracies, trying to determine the will of imagined beings, trying to find clues and connections and associations that aren't there, and so on. It's really hard to accept it when things happen for no good reason, or to accept that there's no particular person or intelligence which you might be able to placate or learn to evade that's behind these events, because your brain is predisposed to look for evidence of those beings-taking-action, in order to try and keep you safe.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

And of course, as a Christian, I believe where there is love, there God is.🙂

But these tendencies don't necessarily lead us to see the world as it actually is; they can lead to us misattributing things that happen, looking for conspiracies, trying to determine the will of imagined beings, trying to find clues and connections and associations that aren't there, and so on. It's really hard to accept it when things happen for no good reason, or to accept that there's no particular person or intelligence which you might be able to placate or learn to evade that's behind these events, because your brain is predisposed to look for evidence of those beings-taking-action, in order to try and keep you safe.

Yes and not necessarily. We can certainly misinterpret. However, just because we cannot see or comprehend a connection between incredibly complex systems does not mean one does not exist. Chaos is not completely random - just (currently) unpredictable...

Which leads me to think, are Big Data interpretations and predictions our version of astrology?...if so not much has changed...

Sure faretheewell — but our brains aren't powerful enough on their own to understand these complex systems. When people look at what's going on and their brains come up with interesting connections and potential "meanings", ones that are entirely consistent with the supposition that their brains are just trying to improve their survival chances by assuming some agent is at work, it seems sensible to wonder whether these connections and meanings are just the result of a brain whose main concern is keeping its owner alive rather than perceiving objective reality, and instead turn to the tools we've developed as a species to bypass the reality-distorting tendencies of our minds, even if those tools are not yet able to give us as many answers as we want.

Data certainly is a valuable commodity in today's world.

www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/big-data/0/steps/7609

and instead turn to the tools we've developed as a species to bypass the reality-distorting tendencies of our minds, even if those tools are not yet able to give us as many answers as we want.

Or within the realms of religious faith we seek to strengthen our connection with God in order to obtain truth through unity with the source of all truth.

I thought exactly that “not much has changed” when I read this book Algorithms to Live by: The Computer Science of Human Decisions

They’re trying to predict future outcomes with varying success, like a fortune teller or astrologer. The technology and methods are different, but it speaks to a human desire for predictions. Makes sense that having foresight is valuable - it keeps you and your side ahead of the game.

I'm not entirely clear on what you think God is trying to 'market' with Corona virus?

@Inspecto,

The technology and methods are different, but it speaks to a human desire for predictions. Makes sense that having foresight is valuable - it keeps you and your side ahead of the game.

But, as a Christian, my priority is not to actively seek foresight but to actively seek God who, I believe in faith, will then will give me foresight as and when I need it. Works for me. 🙂

"32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

(Matthew 6:32-34 New International Version)

I partially agree “Human brains are really bad at understanding chance and randomness, not powerful enough to comprehend a system as complex as life on planet Earth”

And I partially agree with @faretheewell ”Chaos is not completely random - just (currently) unpredictable...”

But I want to add the important point about law, order and justice that God is believed to give and enforce to help humans manage chaos. God is like a manager of the randomness in life - and he probably does have all the data and can manage it in ways we can’t. The idea is he’s supernatural, while we are only natural in the natural world.

“Oxford Professor of Mathematics John Lennox holds that atheism is an inferior world view to that of theism and attributes to C.S. Lewis the best formulation of Merton's thesis that science sits more comfortably with theistic notions on the basis that Men became scientific in Western Europe in the 16th and 17th century "[b]ecause they expected law in nature, and they expected law in nature because they believed in a lawgiver."”

But I find the Christian leaders in this country have been too quiet about big picture questions that the corona pandemic raised. I think they are in a sticky position and don’t want an uncomfortable but honest conversation about the possibility God was behind the awful corona pandemic (and for obvious reasons that it’s bad PR for the church at a time of failing numbers - but the church still can’t escape the point that the bible does show God is capable of sending plagues and pestilence).

I think the Archbishop of Canterbury should say something about the corona (meaning crown) and if he thinks it’s possibly an omen from God? The Church of England has never crowned a divorced man as King, let alone one who has publicly confessed to adultery – with the relevant woman expecting to be crowned Queen Consort. The Archbishop must know how God feels about adultery because it’s in the Ten Commandments - and yet he is the one doing the crowning in a religious coronation ceremony.

Have you read this book?

God Is Not Nice: Rejecting Pop Culture Theology and Discovering the God Worth Living For Ulrich L. Lehner reintroduces Christians to the true God―not the polite, easygoing, divine therapist who doesn’t ask much of us, but the Almighty God who is unpredictable, awe-inspiring, and demands our entire lives.
Stripping away the niceties with a sling blade, Lehner shows that God is more strange and beautiful than we imagine, and wants to know and transform us in the most intimate way. Lehner challenges the God of popular culture and many of our churches and reintroduces the God of the Bible and traditional Christianity. As Lehner writes in the book’s introduction, "We all need the vaccine of the true transforming and mysterious character of God: The God who shows up in burning bushes, speaks through donkeys, drives demons into pigs, throws Saul from his horse, and appears to St. Francis. It’s only this God who has the power to challenge us, change us, and make our lives dangerous." This book is not safe. It may startle and annoy many people―including those who purport to teach and preach the Gospel, but are missing it, according to Lehner. God Is Not Nice intends to overthrow all of our popular misconceptions about God, inviting us to ask deeper questions about the nature of our lives and our relationship with him.

That is why I thought the who wants to be a millionaire question to Pope about God’s role was very clever. It put the Pope on the spot. But it seems obvious that the answer has to be the one that shows God is as powerful as his faith claims, so it’s D. Which answer would you pick? To would you walk away from the question entirely?

knowyourmeme.com/photos/1816316-covid-19-pandemic

I think the Archbishop of Canterbury should say something about the corona (meaning crown) and if he thinks it’s possibly an omen from God

Do you actually mean omen here? or punishment?

That is why I thought the who wants to be a millionaire question to Pope about God’s role was very clever. It put the Pope on the spot. But it seems obvious that the answer has to be the one that shows God is as powerful as his faith claims, so it’s D. Which answer would you pick? To would you walk away from the question entirely?

My response is I don't know. I don't have to know either. God will give me revelation on it if I need to know and will give me the words if I need to share that revelation. What I have a revelation of, though, is God's love.

@Inspecto, you might find this speech and the comments on it from the Netflix fictional series interesting, though.😉

I’ll have to watch that series. Looks interesting- and scary.

“What I have a revelation of, though, is God's love.”

But love is complex. God has a righteous wrath too - and I believe it comes from love because we don’t get angry at those we don’t love or care about.

But love is complex. God has a righteous wrath too - and I believe it comes from love because we don’t get angry at those we don’t love or care about.

Indeed.

I don’t know. I was thinking about marketing as an analogy to showed a different way of thinking than a scientist focused on the small picture (where the details can lose sight of the bigger picture). Marketing is one of the other departments you’d expect with a bigger picture awareness. (This is all very hypothetical btw)

But if I had to guess: maybe God was marketing a display of formidable power.

“Not all of the plagues were disease, but they all brought destruction and potential death. In that ancient narrative, a plague served two functions: it is divine punishment for injustice, and an assertion of religious power.” - God, plagues and pestilence – what history can teach us about living through a pandemic

In a world where people increasingly think god doesn’t exist or we’ve all moved on from
god or we’re all too intelligent and above god, it could have been god showing he still has power over us even in the highly advanced 21st century.

We were all practically reduced to fighting over toilet paper and staying at home and our luxuries were all withdrawn.

This is an interesting opinion: There is a fifth horseman of the Apocalypse – and it is us