God is the creator so who created god

[Shareornotwhocares]

I’ll nail my colors to the mast first….. I’m not a believer but I also know currently science does not have all the answers to the origins of life

However

I have known Christian’s who believe in god because it answers the two questions we can’t yet answer - where did we come from and what happens when we die

of comfort is gained from that then fine.

however none had got anything plausible to say to the answer to the thread title - if god created us then who created god. It just pushes the unknown back one step in the chain.

@z4zakaha Thank you for taking the time to reply my friend, that's very interesting.

May I correct the Muslim poster on this thread who says Christians only follow the teachings of Paul and have nothing from the time of Jesus Himself?
Matthew - the writer of the gospel bearing his name - was one of Jesus’s actual disciples. He gives an eye witness account, written originally in Aramaic, which he translated into Greek later in his life to make it more widely accessible.
Indeed, it is likely that Christ recruited Matthew - a despised tax collector - precisely because he was literate in three languages (Latin, Greek, Aramaic) and could record Christ’s teaching and miracles for posterity.
Christ claimed to be not only “the Son of Man”, but also a partial incarnation of God - “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.”
Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God, but only Christians recognise the divinity of Christ and know He is the son of God. To say He is not is to call Christ a liar, which is deeply offensive.

I'm aware English is not my mother tongue but even to me the statement “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” does not mean to say Jesus is allegedly saying he is the son of God or he is God does it?

If he is God, why wouldn't he just say 'I am your God, so worship me' it's not difficult is it? Is there a direct quote in any versions of the Bible where Jesus himself says any such explicate sentences?

More importantly, Christians today are grappling with issues and contradictions in different versions of the Bible because you do not have anything from the time of Jesus and the original language Jesus spoke or anything written down by Jesus himself or personally supervised it during his lifetime?

All you have is alleged accounts of disciples many of who were never there or lived at that time.

It seems unfathomable that God became human and died for our sins yet he couldn't be bothered to preserve his message for rest of us so that we can be saved?

In the Qur'an, which is the verbatim words of God revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have promised to guard and preserve His final and last revelation until Day of Judgement.

"Indeed, it is We (God) who sent down the message [i.e., the Qur’an], and indeed, We will be its guardian." [Qur'an, 15:9]

And to this day, after over 1,400 years later we still have exact letter by letter and word by word both, in written form and oral memorisation of the entire Qur'an in its original Classical Arabic as brought down by angel Gabriel.

So, why couldn't the Bibles be preserved if it is the word of God?

Don't misunderstand the Islamic view. We Muslim testify that God did reveal both the old and New Testament as you know them to Prophet Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) but, not the current ones that our Jewish and Christian brothers sisters have.

There is not going to be any new revelation or new Prophet coming after Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Though, Prophet Jesus will return end of times but not with new laws or anything but to fulfil his lifecycle and to kill the Anti-Christ.

He will rule with justice and peace according to Islamic laws and die as a normal human and he will be buried next to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the city of Madinah in Saudia Arabia. In fact, there is burial space already there reserved for him now.

We Muslims love, venerate and are closer to Jesus then those who call themselves Christians because Jesus on his return will not know who Christians are because he was not a Christian and never heard of that word.

He was a Muslim as all the Prophets from Adam till Muhammad (pbuh) are and all those who believed and practice the message they came with from God Almighty.

God have mentioned many a times in the Qur'an that no matter how many signs people see of God in His Creation on the earth and in the heavens and within themselves, some people will never believe.

God is free of all needs or anyone and He only says "Be" and it is.

All human came from God and so shall return back to Him for the final Judegment and He will tell them what they used to do on earth.

God is never unjust to His servants, but His servants are ungrateful for all the favours God have given them.

@z4zakaha, it's a matter of perspective. Jesus didn't sin. There was no separation in Him from God's will, He was a physical manifestation of God's will. So in Jesus we see God and nothing else. So Jesus....God.

As for different translations, our language is living. The word is living in the Bible. New translations serve to preserve meaning as it changes with the changes with our language.

And the last important figure in our trinity, The Holy Spirit comes to live in each of us and in the church as a whole to interact with us and change us each on a deep personal level in order to bring us closer to unity with God.

So therein lies some differences within each of our beliefs. You cannot prove which is 'correct/incorrect' by simply looking at the known history of texts. It is a matter of the heart, spirit and soul.

@faretheewell I respectfully disagree with the complete notion of Jesus being son of or God himself.

We believe in only in one true God without any partners or offspring. If God can create everything we see around us and lots of things we cannot then why would He need a son or need to come on earth as human being and die?

If we use our intellect that God have given us, it does not make any rational or irrational sense at all.

God is able to do all things so if God died on the cross who restored his soul back to him to become alive again?

It is extremely difficult to shift or change one's view and belief specially one that is entrenched but, the truth is there I'm front of you, if you care to look.

At the end of the day, those who believe in God, know that each of us will be judged according to our deeds.

The belief of Christians and original sin is another aspect that cannot be reconciled with any logical or reason.

Why would God die on the cross for our sins?
So, what happened to those who came before Jesus?

How can Jesus be God and yet be on the womb of Mary?

And we know the full stages of child reproduction phases as it's explained in great detail in the Qur'an before any science has knowledge from sperm till foetus. So, was God a sperm?

If yes, who was managing all the creation in His absence?

If we all use our intellect then we can surely come to rational conclusion that these cannot be true.

God is not in His creation.

This is a very good point.

Qur'an, Meaning in English

Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion (Qr'an);upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner -

He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and who has not taken a son and has not had a partner in dominion and has created each thing and determined it with [precise] determination.

But they have taken besides Him gods which create nothing, while they are created, and possess not for themselves any harm or benefit and possess not [power to cause] death or life or resurrection.

And those who disbelieve say, "This [Qur’ān] is not except a falsehood he invented, and another people assisted him in it." But they have committed an injustice and a lie.

And they say, "Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."

Say, [O Muḥammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful."
(Qur'an, surat al-Furqan, 1-6)

@z4zakaha, lots of questions. Here are some answers from the Bible which illustrate Christian beliefs.

If yes, who was managing all the creation in His absence?

God is a spirit. He is not limited to one physical place.

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (NIV)

If we all use our intellect then we can surely come to rational conclusion that these cannot be true.

One answer is here:

2 Corinthians 4:4
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

God is not in His creation.

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (NIV)

So how would God create and not leave (an aspect if) Himself in His creation? When I write you understand an aspect me - my writing reflects me.

@faretheewell, Thank you for taking the time and answering but I cannot use my intellect to understand what different versions of the bible which is supposed to be word of God are in conflict with each other and more crucially, you don't have the original text so how is one supposed to put their trust in something that does not have any verifiable authenticity.

There's no proof what Jesus taught or wrote down himself?

All you have is collection of anonymous author's attributing things to someone else.

In Islam. There are two distinct sources for those are Muslim.

First the the Qur'an itself, which are the verbatim word of God.

And secondly, are the authentic hadiths, which are the sayings, actions and explanation of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

So, we have the actual revelation of God and the Prophet's action all preserved in its original language and meaning.

With bibles, you have nothing of the sort npr can you provide any authentic chain of narration going back to Jesus.

All I can say is, agree to disagree on the account of Jesus beging son of God or God himself.

I cannot ever see at any time where it makes any sense other than those who profess to being Christian.

God is far above what they associate with Him.

It just unfathomable to think that Jesus is God just because he was born to virgin Mary when Adam did not even had a mother or a father?

Do you not use your reason and intellect?

I started asking this question aged 6 when my teachers would read a story from the bible every morning. Said teacher was very angry with the question. I have never had a satisfactory answer, but years later I realised the question is pretty reductionist when it comes to understanding the complexity of time, the universe, death, creation and deity. I am an atheist/agnostic purely because I believe if such a God did exist then humanity wouldn’t know about it, or have to follow rules based on the culture and society of the time. The concept of deity is fascinating. I’ll never believe in it, but I no longer think those who do are fanatics like I did as a child.

Do you not use your reason and intellect
Do I analyse things as a scientist does? Not really. I act (in faith) on what I feel is right. Then I test it. And I pray, frequently, that I do God's will. And it is God's will that I do His will so the only thing that might stop me is myself and I want to do God's will.

I have knowledge and skills which I have acquired over the years. I am educated. No doubt this knowledge informs my actions and thoughts but most day to day decisions and opinions are carried out pretty spontaneously. I did read research which suggested we physically act before we have an intention. It suggested to me that our subconscious affects us more than many of us would credit. Everything we experience affects our subconscious. Which of course includes what we research and study. And I do research and study. A large part of my experiences also include Christian worship.

@z4zakaha Interesting. I’m not on the side of any religion. But what proof do you have that the writings of the Qur’an were written by your God, other than your belief that it was because that’s what your religion teaches? Let’s face it, if any religion had evidence of such kind then everyone would convert.

But that’s what I’m asking. By the time Mohammed came along, Christianity had already been established for 600 years, largely on the basis that Jesus was the sin on God.

Muslims don’t believe that. I’m asking why? You’re right. Gabriel was the messenger in many Biblical stories. Gabriel was the one who revealed Jesus would be the son God. Then Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and a new religion started which stated Jesus wasn’t the son of God. I’m asking why Muslims discount the version given in the bible and established for some 600 years at that point. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question.

it’s clear that the Quran used stories both from the Christian canon and Gnostic texts (eg the story of the clay birds in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas). Why were certain stories taken but the premise that Jesus was the son of God is rejected.

it’s not a misunderstanding - Muslims do not see Jesus as the son of God, I just wonder why?

From Luke

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you." But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David.
He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore
the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. For nothing will be impossible with God." Then Mary said, "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

I am not here to convince anyone to believe or disbelieve in existence of God.

I have learnt and read the Qur'an and come to the rational conclusion that it is the message from the one who is the Creator of everything.

It has nothing to do culture, ethnicity or tribe I belong to.

It is because the Qur'an speaks to me directly, clearly, truthfully without any intermediary.

I and others, who choose to be Muslim (the one who willingly submits to the will of God) do so with reason, understanding and knowledge and not blind faith as some others may do.

People may become indoctrinated with certain views and beliefs and then find it extremely difficult to change their ways even if their views and beliefs are not supported by evidenced or make any reasonable sense.

Those who say God does not exist may not have read the Qur'an or studied basics of Islam and most certainly are influenced by the media narratives of Muslims and Islam which is a great shame.

Because the Qur'an is certainly a unique book that is not like anything on the face of the earth. And that's just when you read the meaning in different languages but if you understand the classical Arabic, you would know the miracle in its language, sentence structure, grammar that is cannot be compared to anything. The eloquence of speech it contains are unmatched to anything

Don't just take word for it, if you doubt it then read it yourself or listen to the recitation of the Qur'an and you'll find it's unlike anything you've ever heard.

At the end of the day, we humans and Jinns are free to believe or disbelieve in God and in his Messengers who brought down the revelations like to Torah given to Moses, Gospel of Jesus and the Qur'an given to Muhammad (pbuh them all).

If you haven't read the Qur'an then how can you know that it is not the word of God when the Qur'an confirms and testifies to the Truth of all the previous Prophets and scriptures and is the final and last testament to all human beings and the Jinns?

Just as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) existed and conveyed the message of God so does God exist beyond any shadow of doubt.

Islam is not a blind faith, it's based on reason, common sense and signs of God.

And the Qur'an is the evidence and miracle with us today and will remain so until the Day of Judgment.

As God says, among their are believers and disbelievers in the message He has sent and God will Judge between the two groups.

That is all I'll say. God only charges Muslims to convey the message of Qur'an to those who might have not come across it or know about it. That is it. Not to convince anyone or convert anyone. It is only God who guides people to the truth and not Prophets or preachers, our task is to convey the message and let people make their own mind up.

As a final word to my Christian brothers and sisters, do not commit excess in your religion about Jesus (peace upon him).

He was born to virgin Mary and was a might messenger of God. He certainly is not son of God nor God himself but a messenger and worshipper of God.

You are confused and unsure about him because of the corruption that has taken place and institutions built around him with mixture of idol and pagan worshipping. Please research and find out what took place in the Council of Nicia over 300 a.d. after Jesus.

If what you claim Jesus to be, then shouldn't Adam be a greater God?

Do you not have sense or reason to think is it befitting the Majesty of God to have begotten a son?

Far above is God of what you ascribe as partners to Him.

Peace.

@z4zakaha,

If what you claim Jesus to be, then shouldn't Adam be a greater God?

Adam sinned, Jesus didn't. Jesus freed believers in Him from sin.

@z4zakaha
This is from Nabeel Qureshi, a former Muslim who converted to Christianity. He's sadly since died from cancer but you can find his very powerful testimony on YouTube. I've edited the transcript slightly for the sake of length:

'....I saw him one night reading the Bible and I thought okay this will be fun, let's take down another Christian, so I looked at my friend (whose name was David) and I said "David, do you realise that book you're reading is not trustworthy; it's been corrupted over time...Jesus spoke Aramaic, did he not? And the earliest church was in Palestine, in Jerusalem, in Israel, so they must have spoken Hebrew? But, by the time the New Testament is written, it's in Greek - so you have a translation of a translation of Jesus' words before it's ever written down. Then...Latin...German...English...KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB...you've got so many translations of the Bible how can I know which one is actually the Word of God?!"
He looked at me and he said "Nabeel, let me ask you a question; when you were speaking to your mum on the phone, was that in English? No, but when you told me what she said, you told me in English - was that a corrupted translation? No, so when you're bilingual you can take a message that's given in one language and accurately translate that message into another language and you've preserved the message. That's exactly what the disciples did. They were able to listen to the language Jesus spoke and write it in Greek. Of that Greek New Testament manuscript we have in our possession over 6,000 copies and if we didn't have any of those copies, then we also have 10,000 Latin Coptic and Syriac translations and over 30,000 quotations of the New Testament from the early church fathers - with which we can virtually reconstruct the entire New Testament many times over. We know with certainty the message of the original New Testament".

There's more which I'll add when I've got a minute. Peace to you Sister.

Adam disobeyed the command of his Lord of to not to go near a specific tree. He and his wife they both repented and God forgave them both and put them on the earth for a time that God had Willed for them to remain. They were made the custodian of the earth whilst they dwelled on it.

Maybe I'm just too dumb (sorry) but, who created Adam without mother or a father?

Did God or Jesus create Adam in the beginning?

If it was Jesus, then he already existed then why would he be born again to human being centuries later?

And according to Christian belief, Jesus is now sitting on the right hand side of God in heaven?

So, is there are two separate beings? Or just one?

Sorry, my head is spinning. It just so unfathomable and mind blowing concept that one can only believe by just having faith and not reason.

So, in Islam. There's only One God and no other deity. He was never born and never dies. He is the first and He is the last. He has no partners nor any children. He is the creator of everything and He does not share His authority with anyone else.

He is the Most Merciful, the Most Kind, the Most Loving and He is perpetual Forgiver of sins of His servants when they repent to Him alone without any intercessors. He has the most beautiful names and attributes.

When He Wills a thing, He only says "Be" and it is.

He has sent Prophets and Messengers from time to time to guide the people when they have strayed away from the straight path (the path that leads to God).

This was the only reason and purpose of God sending Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) to the people, to show them straight path.

And to Him we all shall return and God will judge between His slaves.

Which narrative do you believe is a more reasonable, probable, rational and makes sense to an average person be it a child or an adult? Christian man-God or Islamic, one God?

I truly cannot believe the only thing you can quote is some random person and his dream?

Seriously?

I asked for what firs hand evidence do Christians posses directly from Jesus himself?

Not someone who was there, and wrote stories about their dreams and whatever.

If you're basing your salvation on something you can't prove that it's actually authentic then all I'll say good on you.

I would certainly want to learn, find out what I want to believe does actually make reasonable sense with signs and evidences I can test and see.

If it is from God then those signs are real and true.

I can prove to you the miracles and signs that God have mentioned in the Qur'an are real, true and have come to pass and others will too in the future when the time comes.

Please Google Qur'an and Science and you will see them.

@z4zakaha Unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to do this particular debate justice. It wasn't very clear from my post, but the conversation is between Nabeel (a Muslim at the time) and his Christian friend David. David was explaining that although it's true that the Bible has been translated into many different languages over time the words have remained true to the original - including direct quotes from Christ, as recorded by His disciples. This is one verse I'd like to share with you:

"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. John 8:46-59.

With respect, in terms of solid evidence I don't see that you have any more to offer than I do. My hope of Salvation is by faith alone (FAITH - Forsaking All I Trust Him) through Jesus' saving grace. He also said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6-7.

@z4zakaha,
Did God or Jesus create Adam in the beginning?

Christians believe Jesus was there at the beginning because He is contained within God and God is contained within Him.

"10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (John 14:10)"

So, is there are two separate beings? Or just one?
They are not separate because they have complete unity. Like if we were able to have a satellite of ourselves that still worked in complete unity with our own bodies.

If it was Jesus, then he already existed then why would he be born again to human being centuries later?
Being born is an important part of human experience. Jesus is the physical form of God the Father who is spirit.

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”(NIV)

And Christians believe in one God but as God is a spirit He can manifest in different forms. One God, who is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These forms act in complete unity with one another - so are one.

As a analogy: we, as human beings, host many microorganisms which are intrinsic to many functions within our body. There are more cells which are foreign organisms within us than our own cells. Although that point is moot since we rely on symbiotic relationship with them and this affects our very way of being, even the way we think, even our very genetics. Where do we start and end? When all of parts of us act in unity we are well, when not we get sick.

@faretheewell That's great, thank you for that, it's roughly what I wanted to say too. Just to add to your point:

"Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority."
Colossians 2:8-10 (NLT).

Respectfully, I do not understand the Christian theology and belief.

Though, we Muslims testify Jesus as one of the mightiest messenger of God sent to children of Israel to take them out of darkness into light but the evil ones rejected him even though He showed them and performed miracles with God's permission, not his and nothing more.

It's my fault for not being able to understand it.

One in three and three in One is humanly, logically and mathematically impossible.

If you are content with the present day Christian beliefs and are sure that it lead to Paradise in the Hereafter then who am I to convince you that you are on the wrong path.

I humbly ask you, if you want to know who Jesus was and what he said then read the English meaning of the Qur'an. You don't have nothing to lose.

I assure you that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was last and final messenger of God as foretold by Jesus himself and the Qur'an is the final revelation.

No new messengers will come nor any new revelations.

Just ask our Jewish brothers how long have they been waiting for the Messiah?

Jesus was the Messiah but they denied him and the "Praises One, Ahmad" Jesus prophesied is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Just ask all those eminent priests, monks, scientists, educated and less educated are reverting back to Islam.

It's not a numbers game, it's a question of knowing the truth when it's their in front of you and not letting our prejudices, arrogance or our hatred cloud our judgement.

Anyway, all the best and peace.

@z4zakaha

I humbly ask you, if you want to know who Jesus was and what he said then read the English meaning of the Qur'an. You don't have nothing to lose.

I am content to read The Bible in terms of understanding Jesus through religious text.

Would you want to read The Bible and pray as a Christian prays in order to receive The Holy Spirit, be baptised and receive communion, and take part in Christian praise and worship in order to understand Jesus as we understand Him? Be careful, as you answer, as it might put you in danger of actually becoming Christian, body, spirit and soul!

@z4zakaha,

One in three and three in One is humanly, logically and mathematically impossible.

Not to me. Life is not simplistic. This quote illustrates the complexity of life. Where does one organism begin and end?

"Someone got up to talk about a group of plants that produced a certain group of chemicals in their leaves. Until then, the chemicals had been thought as a defining characteristic of that group of plants. However, it transpired that the chemicals were actually made by the fungi that Iived in the leaves of the plant. Our idea of the plant had to be redrawn. Another researcher interjected, suggesting that it may not be the fungi living in the leaf that produced these chemicals, but the bacteria living inside the fungus." (P18&19 Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake).