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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

God is the creator so who created god

252 replies

Shareornotwhocares · 13/08/2022 23:18

I’ll nail my colors to the mast first….. I’m not a believer but I also know currently science does not have all the answers to the origins of life

However

I have known Christian’s who believe in god because it answers the two questions we can’t yet answer - where did we come from and what happens when we die

of comfort is gained from that then fine.

however none had got anything plausible to say to the answer to the thread title - if god created us then who created god. It just pushes the unknown back one step in the chain.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Vincitveritas · 18/08/2022 23:36

Goodnight drbuzzaro 💛🕊

djdkdkddkek · 19/08/2022 07:49

Vincitveritas · 18/08/2022 17:03

Exactly rainbowdaz. I do find it interesting though that there isn't a word for prejudice against the Christian faith, like antisemitism for example. Christianity is openly mocked with talk of sky fairies and imaginary friends. I reported a few highly insulting posts recently, which frustratingly haven't been removed. If someone was to come on here and say something derogatory about the prophet Muhammad or slag off the Quran it would be a different story!

Agree whole heartedly

LastTrainEast · 19/08/2022 11:28

Vincitveritas · 18/08/2022 17:03

Exactly rainbowdaz. I do find it interesting though that there isn't a word for prejudice against the Christian faith, like antisemitism for example. Christianity is openly mocked with talk of sky fairies and imaginary friends. I reported a few highly insulting posts recently, which frustratingly haven't been removed. If someone was to come on here and say something derogatory about the prophet Muhammad or slag off the Quran it would be a different story!

Islam and Christianity are based on the same imaginary god (just like Thor , Zeus or Cardea). The original was a simple tribal god who made the rain fall and helped them slaughter their enemies and he was invented by men. None of it was real. It's just a story which sounds increasingly ridiculous to people in our time.

If you think you have seen fewer comments about Islam then check in on Salmon Rushdie, but I've had long sensible debates with Muslims without difficulty and Christians used to be just as bad in that respect.

Religions change over time as needed to suit current events. When science appeared Christians rewrote much of their belief as it became embarrassing. Hence the decline in those who believe in Adam & Eve despite the problems that change causes.

Like Christians, Muslims still believe in magic because someone told them it was true. Typically at a very young age. Which makes them victims of their religion just like Christians are.

That's not a total excuse. It's hard to shake off, but people can see through it if they make the effort, but I try to remember that and not be too hard on believers unless they start pushing it onto me/others.

There isn't a term for prejudice against the Christian faith because for most of history the prejudice was in the other direction and non believers were killed. We only recently removed the blasphemy law in this country.

Jews on the other hand suffered at the hands of many including and especially the Christians.

The most a Christian has to worry about is someone not believing that his god can turn snakes into walking sticks and maybe laughing when he claims he prayed for a good parking space and god stopped running the universe for a moment to make it happen.

Vincitveritas · 19/08/2022 14:07

@LastTrainEast Thank you, that was very insightful, I think we'll leave it there.

Vincitveritas · 19/08/2022 14:11

And my point was, the comments would have been deleted the minute they got flagged up, not that there are less of them.

drbuzzaro · 19/08/2022 14:31

there have been comments critical of islam that have not been deleted. MNHQ are not out to get christians. must try harder.

Vincitveritas · 19/08/2022 14:36

drbuzzaro · 19/08/2022 14:31

there have been comments critical of islam that have not been deleted. MNHQ are not out to get christians. must try harder.

Try harder at what? What do you think I'm trying to achieve here exactly?

djdkdkddkek · 19/08/2022 15:24

drbuzzaro · 19/08/2022 14:31

there have been comments critical of islam that have not been deleted. MNHQ are not out to get christians. must try harder.

Where? I’ve never seen any without pushback

drbuzzaro · 19/08/2022 16:21

Really, I've been on mumsnet for years and I've seen it plenty.

Hiddenmnetter · 19/08/2022 23:58

@LastTrainEast Islam and Christianity are based on the same imaginary god (just like Thor , Zeus or Cardea). The original was a simple tribal god who made the rain fall and helped them slaughter their enemies and he was invented by men. None of it was real. It's just a story which sounds increasingly ridiculous to people in our time.

I disagree wholeheartedly. There is a huge difference between the monotheistic religions and the pantheism or animism of various tribal religions.

Again, I go back to my previous post that arguments about the existence of God are not religious arguments as such- we are not addressing theological disputes about what God said, or did, or whatever. We are addressing the philosophical question of the existence of a prime mover, or an uncaused cause. This is an area of philosophy often called “natural theology” - theology in that it concerns God- natural in that it is about what can be grasped by natural reason, there is no additional need for revelation or providence to disclose what philosophy can tell us about God.

it is telling that in fact these first arguments about the existence of an “uncaused cause” were not from Christian thinkers, but Greeks. Aristotle lays out in his Metaphysics why the existence of the world demands a cause that is itself not caused, because causation itself is not a sufficient explanation. The eternal is not something persisting in perpetuity backwards and forwards in time, but is something a-temporal, outside time, outside of change. This, Aquinas famously puts it, all men call God. This is not an assertion that “this is the Christian God”, or the Islamic God- this is an assertion, quite reasonable too, that something never comes from nothing, and that therefore for there to be anything at all, there must first have been something that has always been.

The absurd accusation that this is a ‘God of the gaps’ is nonsense too- we are not talking about the gaps that have yet to be explained- we are talking about an origin that is simply not open to science to explain. Science can only explain that which can be observed- it is an epistemic method, based on observation. But observation gives rise to principles, and there is a clear principle in this world, and all the universe, that something never comes from nothing- therefore the question “where does anything at all stem from” is a natural, and sensible question.

arguing about the particular features or characteristics of this God (is God a he, or a she? Is he love? Is he just? Is God a monster? What is God like?) is a question proper to theology.

the most that Philosophy can say about God is that God is the foundation of the possibility of being, that he is one, true, good and beautiful (in so far as these are transcendental terms) and that of these, the intelligibility of saying “God is being” is understood (at least I argued in my masters) through the term good as a ‘controlled’ analogy.

This is a huge part of the issue- whenever humans discuss anything, we move from experience to principle- from fact to idea. While we can have an experience of this being, or that being (limited and delineated by the specific differences of each particular being), it is impossible for us to experience being in-so-far as it is pure potential. We always experience being in some kind of act, therefore we have to stretch our thought in ways that we do not ordinarily do to talk about God sensibly. Natural theology is a very limited subject in that what it has to say has to be carefully excised from revelation based theology because they are different subjects.

OPs original question of God as uncaused cause is natural theology, not theology proper, and it only confuses the situation for people to argue about Christianity or Islam or any other religion (even though I think that any monotheistic religion is essentially compatible with the God that natural theology exposes).

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 14:36

I think drbuzzaro must be one of the moderators😉

I don't agree with anything LastTrainEast said, but I guess we're even in that respect.

@Hiddenmnetter You've made some good points there.

drbuzzaro · 20/08/2022 14:45

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 14:36

I think drbuzzaro must be one of the moderators😉

I don't agree with anything LastTrainEast said, but I guess we're even in that respect.

@Hiddenmnetter You've made some good points there.

why, because they don't delete anything that's critical of your religion?

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 15:10

I'm equally concerned about the posts targeting Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. In the same way I would expect racist, homophobic or just plain nasty posts to be deleted, these should also be removed. Religion is now a protected characteristic after all.

drbuzzaro · 20/08/2022 15:13

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 15:10

I'm equally concerned about the posts targeting Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. In the same way I would expect racist, homophobic or just plain nasty posts to be deleted, these should also be removed. Religion is now a protected characteristic after all.

most of the UK no longer has blasphemy laws.

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 15:16

Hardly relevant here, drbuzzaro.

drbuzzaro · 20/08/2022 15:17

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 15:16

Hardly relevant here, drbuzzaro.

your the one who seems to think religion being a protected characteristic seems mn should remove posts critical or religion

Carpy88999 · 20/08/2022 15:27

If your belief system can't hold up to a little prodding and teasing then that's on you. I respect your right to believe anything you want but at the same time if I think it's silly I'm within my rights to tell you. If you get offended by that so fucking what offense is taken not given in cases like this.

Solosunrise · 20/08/2022 16:41

@Hiddenmnetter thank you for your excellent post!

Vincitveritas · 20/08/2022 16:46

@Carpy88999 Charming, I wonder if you take the same approach in everyday life...

Anyway, I've said my piece, all the best.

DrawingdowntheMoon · 01/09/2022 19:31

@user1471453601 If heaven is as lovely as we are told, why wouldn't you want to get there asap? Cue, mass suicide. Putting the clause in there that suicide is a sin, so therefore precludes you going to heaven serves a purpose.

You have misunderstood the (Catholic) church's teaching on Suicide and Sin.

The Catchism states that "We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of"

Suicide has traditionally be considered a gravely wrong moral action, i.e. a mortal sin. However, for a sin to be mortal and cost someone salvation, the objective action (in this case the taking of one's own life) must be grave or serious matter; the person must have an informed intellect (know that this is wrong); and the person must give full consent of the will (intend to commit this action).
Most people who commit suicide have psychological problems that can impede the exercise of the will so that a person may not be fully responsible or even responsible at all for that action.
This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.

At the end of the day it is up to God to make the judgement, but we can say the Mass for the soul of the suicide victim.

OMG12 · 17/09/2022 21:02

heres a couple of possibilities.

God/gods/goddesses are vessels created by man into which pure energy is poured to enable man to have a god he can contemplate

the source is nothing and then energy and then a knowable form taking on that form so it can interact with creation so God is created by itself out of nothing

MsBombastic555 · 17/09/2022 21:06

Just an educated stab in the dark...he doesn't need creating...the concept of creating is a human thought..if you see what I mean....sorry I'm not very good at explaining.. creating only ""makes sense" to us humans on the platform/plane that we're in.

OMG12 · 17/09/2022 21:09

This is the explanation in Kabbalah en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin_and_Yesh

MsBombastic555 · 17/09/2022 21:43

Octopuscrazy · 15/08/2022 18:33

A question which has puzzled philosophers for centuries!

For me, God exists outside the realm of cause and effect because God created cause and effect.

In the same way a born blind person cannot comprehend vision, or a born deaf person cannot comprehend hearing, God cannot be comprehended by us because we do not possess the sense to allow us to understand it.

We have no field of reference to things outside cause and effect and so we cannot explain it in human terms thus we have to have faith and believe and accept it even though I accept it is difficult because it is such an abstract thought.

"Cause and effect" this is what I was badly trying to articulate by saying God does not need to be created. Creation is a human concept.

MsBombastic555 · 17/09/2022 21:47

youkiddingme · 14/08/2022 20:01

A little old lady by the name of Marigold Petuia Wattlebottom created God.
Accidentally. She knitted him, merely as a way of using up her rather bloated yarnstash and as a way of passing a Sunday afternoon while her husband, George, made his way swiftly towards the nineteenth hole.

Her grandson, a bright but rather untidy lad by the name of Sebastian, had left his chemistry set out during his weekly sleepover. Marigold, who had become a little short-sightee, but could still knit just fine thankyou, as her fingers had grown accustomed to the feel of the yarn and the rhythm of the needles, went to tidy it away and there was an unfortunate accident.

Marigold suffered no greater injury than the loss of both eyebrows but her recently knitted creation not only rose up and recited the entire history of the universe, backwards, but informed Marigold that he was in fact, and always had been, THE one.

Marigold has often wondered if George had slipped something in her Sanatogen, but with little evidence to back up this theory, we can only assume knitted God was telling the truth.

Ah, you say—but who created Marigold? Marigold of course grew from a seed, planted in a neat garden in the parish of Saint Brigid. Now, you may already know that Saint Brigid is the patron saint of hens. Indeed it was Brigid's chicken shit that fertilised the garden which gave birth to Marigold.

The chicken shit came from a hen by the name of Irene. Irene was born of an egg laid by Imelda. Imelda was ... ah but that's another story.

Sweet! 😄🖐🏻

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