God is the creator so who created god

[Shareornotwhocares]

I’ll nail my colors to the mast first….. I’m not a believer but I also know currently science does not have all the answers to the origins of life

However

I have known Christian’s who believe in god because it answers the two questions we can’t yet answer - where did we come from and what happens when we die

of comfort is gained from that then fine.

however none had got anything plausible to say to the answer to the thread title - if god created us then who created god. It just pushes the unknown back one step in the chain.

Muslims are closer to Jesus then Christians or anyone else because Jesus is a Muslim, just like all the prophets.

They worshipped the One true God and they did not associate any partners with Him.

We know more about Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Joseph and all the other prophets of God (peace be upon them all) than what Christians and Jews do.

So, unless you can provide the original gospel that God revealed to Jesus there's no point in any Muslim following the present day corrupted anonymously written text that is not what was revealed to Jesus.

To know the real Jesus, you need to read the Qur'an and not the bible.

Blind faith only leads you astray while making you feel good.

Real faith is when we see evidences and proofs combined with rational common sense and use our intellectual faculties to informed choice.

Christianity teaches you to blind faith whereas Islam commands you to go and observe the signs of God's existence and in the heavens and on earth and within yourselves until you are conveniences that there is only One true God and there is no other deity worthy of worship except Him alone.

The God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, Joseph, Jonah, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

They all worshipped the same God, the One true God.

Why Christians made worshipping of God the messed up and illogical only they know.

Jesus was not son of God, but a servant of God.

Your estimation of God is so low that you bring Him into His creation?

The same God that created the heavens and the earth and brought you into being in diverse stages and will cause you to die and return back to Him.

He is the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glorified is God! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.

Your estimation of God is so low that you bring Him into His creation?

No, our estimation is far from low! We are amazed at God's love for us in doing this! And rejoice in this and turn towards Him and love Him back!

Last post @z4zakaha.

@z4zakaha

Real faith is when we see evidences and proofs combined with rational common sense and use our intellectual faculties to informed choice.

Concerning faith:

"18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as deadsince he was about a hundred years oldand that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."(Romans 4:18-25 NIV)

Islam commands you to go and observe the signs of God's existence and in the heavens and on earth and within yourselves until you are conveniences that there is only One true God and there is no other deity worthy of worship except Him alone.

Christians worship one God! It's just He is not limited to one form. Christ and the Holy Spirit are in unity with God the Father - they are one.

Just as I am a wife, mother, daughter and sister. All those experiences of me in different roles are still experiences of me.

Just as different and diverse organisms can be in unity with us living in our own bodies and acting as one with us, each of us can move towards closer unity with God.

Mmm, well 3 in one is not mathematically or logically impossible. Think of a triangle. 3 points, 3 lines, the first geometrical shape, the strongest. It’s a triangle but also 3 points.

Although, of course in traditions which consider mathematics as the building blocks of the universe God uses numbers and isn’t numbers.

some traditions also look at the concept of a quadrinity in a trinity. Using concepts around sacred geometry (a practice predating most of tge Abrehamic faiths) it is both logical and rational.

now I’ve read a few of the chapters out of Quran today. It is remarkably similar in structure to the Gospel of Thomas and as previously mentioned it seems to contain some stories from older Gnostic texts regarding Jesus.

Many of the things you throw at Christianity are equally true of Islam. Most scholars think the Quran was written down probably after Mohammed’s death meaning that there was equally a risk of distortion. This Article is helpful I think in setting out the time line of when the concepts were revealed/conceived.

I think it also points out some of the issues regarding interpretation of the Arabic. Now, of course you could point to similar isdues regarding Hebrew which had the same vowel issue.

Regarding the use of Greek. This would have been the scholarly written language, rather like Latin became. Are you saying that all scholarly texts written in Latin are inaccurate?

the writing in the New Testament where Jesus life was reported would suggest a good knowledge of Hebrew. But of course, you could argue either way. Was the camel going through the eye of a needle a misunderstanding or joke about the Hebrew alphabet specifically Gimmel?

just because something doesn’t make sense to you, doesn’t mean it’s not true. I would argue if you are basing your position on a God on logic or rationalism you have no faith by definition. But you actually aren’t displaying any rationalism or logic, you’re just saying what would seem more plausible to you. That’s fine, people find paths which speak to them. But it doesn’t make them universally right, they’re just right for you. History shows anytime people unquestionably believe one concept without question it’s never good.

Now Jesus wasn’t a Muslim, he wasn’t Christian, he was a Jew. He could be neither a Christian or a Jew because neither concept existed. If you were applying logic you would see that was true.

We have copies of the synoptic gospels plus John which date from approximately the same time after Jesus death as the earliest copy of the Quaran This Article is helpful.

if we want to apply logic, Christianity is based on the teachings of some dude wondering round the promised land giving good life advice in the context of the Jewish tradition pointing out some of its failings, largely gaining traction for political motivations (mainly conquering) Islam was basically appropriating some existing stories and concepts, giving them a new twist to distinguish it from other faiths, used as a means to conquer.

taking away logic and rationalism they are belief systems which have given a lot of people meaning and feelings of truth, they’ve been used for tremendous good and tremendous evil, because all things are inherent in all religions because they are man’s filter on God.

All religions offer some of the truth. Only someone delusional would think they have the whole picture. Keep learning and growing from all sources.

I wasn't going to write anymore but I must respond to your false and completely ridiculous claim that according some scholars the Qur'an was probably written down after Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) death?

Clearly, they can't be scholars if they don't have the elementary knowledge of how Qur'an revealed.

The Qur'an is an oral miracle, it is primarily an oral recitation and not a book as you would like the bible or any other. Hence, there's nothing like it on the face of the earth.

The Qur'an memorised cover to cover and when Muslims pray, it's not read from a written book but have to recite it orally from memory.

That is why we have Imam (leader) leading the prayer from the front and because to be an Imam you have to be most knowledgeable in the Qur'an and memorisation of it.

There are literally millions of hufaz ( those who have memorised the Qur'an of by heart around the world from 5 year old child to 70 year olds.

So, the transmission of Qur'an is not dependent on writing it down but commuting it to memory.

And this is how it was transmitted from the Prophet to his thousands of followers who learnt it directly from him.

As well as it being written down by the scribes whilst being personally supervised by the Prophet himself after each revelation of the Qur'an and kept with mother of the believers.

To say that it wasn't is a complete lie and fabrication.

What you maybe confused with is the compilation of the Mushaf (binding it into book format) which was done under the 3rd Caliph (Muslim ruler) to make it easy for the increasing coverts to Islam to learn from authentic source and avoid any mistakes and interpolation by the new Muslims who were not with the Prophet or his companions.

We still have same Qur'an as it was back then still in the museum in Turkey and you will also find one of oldest copy in Dublin, Ireland I believe

And that is the truth.

Meaning in English.

[ This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of God -

Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We (majestic plural) have provided for them,

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muḥammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

God has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

And of the people are some who say, "We believe in God and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

They [think to] deceive God and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not.

In their hearts is disease, so God has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie. ]

Al-Qur'an, Surat Al-Baqarah (02) (Cow), 2-10.

This is an recitation of the Qur'an and it's recited from of the heart.

@z4zakaha

Respectfully, I do not understand the Christian theology and belief.
One in three and three in One is humanly, logically and mathematically impossible.

I don't usually use Wikipedia, but the Holy Trinity is explained here in a nutshell:

'In the Christian religion, the doctrine of the Trinity is the most known dogma about the nature of God. In most Christian churches, this idea is used to explain that three distinct divine persons—God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit—are of the same essence (homoousion), share the same qualities, and are therefore One God.
Each person in the Trinity has the same qualities as God because they are each fully God; no other member is less God than the other. Because God is uncreated and has always existed, this also applies to them.'

Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer, but it's not an easy concept for anyone to get their head around at all! So you see, we don't worship Jesus Christ instead of or in addition to God, because He is God. Christians still keep the first of the 10 Commandments, "You shall have no other gods before me."
Jesus also said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17.

I assure you that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was last and final messenger of God as foretold by Jesus himself
the "Praises One, Ahmad" Jesus prophesied is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
There is no mention of Jesus having spoken about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible - same goes for the Old Testament. For Christians the last prophet before the arrival of Jesus was John the Baptist.

Just ask all those eminent priests, monks, scientists, educated and less educated are reverting back to Islam.
Are they? I haven't heard anything which would suggest this is the case.

We Muslims love, venerate and are closer to Jesus then those who call themselves Christians because Jesus on his return will not know who Christians are because he was not a Christian and never heard of that word.
This makes me sad to read and I feel very offended by your suggestion that, on His return Jesus would not recognise me, one of His flock.

He was a Muslim as all the Prophets from Adam till Muhammad (pbuh) are and all those who believed and practice the message they came with from God Almighty.
There must be some confusion here. Jesus was Jewish, not Muslim. He read the Torah, perfectly kept the Law of Moses, observed all the Jewish festivals and regularly taught in the synagogues.

it's a question of knowing the truth when it's their in front of you and not letting our prejudices, arrogance or our hatred cloud our judgement.
I whole heartedly agree.

@z4zakaha

Spot on.

I always love that diagram. Probably the most east to understand representations of the Trinity / thanks for sharing

But with the greatest respect that makes no sense, you say the Quran is!not a book but an oral tradition. Yet you say it’s important to memorise that book cover to cover. That doesn’t make it an oral tradtion, just successive people memorising the same book, and likely misremembering it! Even more dangerous to rely on others reciting a book from their memory.

How can you tell what was written by scribes is what was included in the book that was complied, was it everything? What order was it put in? Did they add anything? Was it written down accurately esp with the written Arabic having several interpretations. Is the Iman interpreting it? If so on what basis/authority? Given the different ways in which people act but all under the apparent authority of the Quran it would seem open to wide interpretation. Much like the Bible (or indeed any other book).

The Oldest copies of the Quran either exist in fragments or are from centuries after Mohammed’s death, much like copies of the contents of the Bible.

each person to their own. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system, although it’s extremely dangerous to accept something unquestionably.

Islam is just another belief system. If it speaks to you great, but it doesn’t make it better than another objectively speaking. It’s just another representation of God with a bunch of rules which has been around less than 1500 years out of the 200,000 years man has existed. I mean what was God doing in the meantime? Having a few trial runs? Did Gabriel have a giggle with some poor girl 500 years before telling her she was going to give birth to the sin of God, killing time until Mohammed was born and walked into a cave?

What is utterly bizarre is that you seem to be saying Jesus prefers Muslims over Christian’s because he was a Muslim. What kind of thinking gets you there, I’d love to know!

Jesus said he was the son of God, you call that a lie

Jesus never mentioned any future prophets yet you have Mohammed- was Jesus wrong?

Jesus was a Muslim - how can that be when Islam had not yet been revealed/invented. Jesus was a Jew. You can’t go round appropriating the Som of God to make you feel special.

If Jesus does return, quite frankly he’s going to be pissed off with a lot of people and struggle to get the 10,000 to make it onto the guest list! But I suspect people who believe him will get priority. People keep taking a really beautiful thing and really screwing it up.

Sufficient for me is to reply with the surat al-Kafirun (109) (chapter of those who disbelieve)

[What it means in English]

Say, "O disbelievers,

I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

We will surely find out who is on the religion and who is only following assumptions and practising false beliefs after we die.

Muslim = Someone who submits their will to God willingly. So, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) were all Muslims.

Jews and Christians are word your forefathers invented. God never called the followers of Moses and Jesus as either but, they were called the Children of Israel (Children of Prophet Jacob).

Peace.

We will surely find out who is on the religion and who is only following assumptions and practising false beliefs after we die.
That is indeed true my friend.

@z4zakaha I hope you're well, I wanted to share with you some writing from the book of Hebrews which might shed a bit more light on who Jesus is:

"God’s Final Word: His Son
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs." Hebrews 1:1-4.

"Jesus Greater Than Moses
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." Hebrews 3:1-6.

This video was released yesterday about the origins of Yahweh and El and amalgamation with/demonisation of Ba’al in the OT.

love Dr Justin Sledge

If you are not a believer why does it even matter?

Wouldn't you be better living the best life you can and preparing for oblivion?

I've seen these sort of posts before and they end up with the believers trying to persuade the atheists there is a god and the atheists trying to rubbish their ideas.

It's a waste of time. It's trying to square the circle.

Believers work with faith, which is illogical, atheists work with logic, with eschews ' faith', so never the twain shall meet !

There is a bit of middle ground I think. I, as an agnostic, am about to sing the St John Passion. I do not believe the text as fact, or as having anything to do with god. I see in it a story of human failings, of moral dilemmas, of "clan thinking" - of the many challenges that face us all. So, as such, it has universal meaning. And the music is sublime of course.

So - I can see reflections of who we as humans are in religious texts. Scenarios that we can all relate to. And I also see the imposition of a god concept to help people of the time grasp what is going on around them - high mortality, the absence of medicine when loved ones are sick, floods, storms, earthquakes etc.

I have absolutely no idea whether there is a creator/god - and neither does anyone else. But some people have a belief, which often means a lot to them.

I watch all this as an outside observer and have come to the conclusion that religions have equal power for good and for evil - we could all list examples of both - and that the best way for us humans is to live life with kindness as the top priority - if god exists, then that is a fine way to live; if he/she/it does not then it is still a fine way to live.

What a lovely post

One in three and three in One is humanly, logically and mathematically impossible.

Not so, think of water; it can magically transform into three different states - solid, liquid and gas! And this is true of something as simple as water. It's how I like to think of the Holy Trinity.

not at the same time

There's always one!

It's an analogy, albeit a bad one given the complexity around the nature of God.

Not necessarily, at a sub atomic level all states of matter are the same. At a macro level we see differences in appearance and properties. Some would argue the holy trinity could operate on similar multiple levels...

...not me though, I'm with the agnostics, I'll leave the theology and quantum physics to those who know more!