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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Christianity & homophobia

280 replies

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 16:39

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

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WhereYouLeftIt · 12/12/2021 16:46

Atheist here, don't know my Bible particularly, but in Genesis, the first book of the Old Testament there is the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. The reason for the destruction was because the men were 'lying' with men, i.e. men having sex with other men. It's why anal sex is sometimes referred to as sodomy.

No idea what churches think, and there's probably other biblical references to homosexuality, but that's the one I know about.

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 17:07

Well that's something i didn't know, so thank you. I knew about the use of sodomy for anal sex, but not the origins of the word

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Millie50 · 12/12/2021 17:07

If he is saying that it is wrong to experience same sex attraction, his views would not be in line with mainstream Christianity. The Bible does not say it is wrong to BE gay. It does say it is wrong to commit homosexual acts. Some Christians believe this literally. Some see it more in the context of the time it was written etc. You can easily find the specific passages by googling.

My experience is that generally churches don't really talk about it much in sermons etc. I have never heard a sermon on it. I think it would be fair to compare it to pre-marital sex between heterosexual couples. Both are described as sinful in the Bible, both are between consenting adults. I've never heard a sermon on the sinfulness of pre-marital sex either. I think most mainstream churches these days accept that individuals have different views and must choose their own position. Individual churches are of course likely to contain people with similar views I guess.

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 17:20

Thanks Millie. That's reminded me that the Rev Richard Coles said in an interview that he & his partner David, who was also a vicar, were not permitted by the church to have an intimate relationship & remain in the clergy, despite having a civil partnership.
It's something i'm keen to find out more about so i will google later on. I can't quite get my head around someone outright condemning people because of their sexuality. Obv i know it happens - i worked in gay bars & for The Terrence Higgins Trust in my early/mid 20s - but haven't come face to face with such blatant hostility voiced in a long time.

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SolasAnla · 12/12/2021 17:25

The Catholic Church released a position statement on blessing a same sex union.
The crux is that marriage is about having children which a same sex couple can't do between themselves
press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2021/03/15/210315b.html

But you will note that the individual person can receive blessing.

LaurieFairyCake · 12/12/2021 17:39

Methodist here (mainstream)

Our church has just voted to have same sex marriage (a huge deal)

There are no passages that trump "Love one another as I have loved you. And love your neighbour as yourself".

Jesus said the above ^^ - he never said one word against homosexuality

And the Bible is about Jesus (obviously Grin) - anything else is bollocks written by man

Theremoresefulday · 12/12/2021 17:43

Presbyterian church in Northern Ireland and Ireland is taking a hard line.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59598519.amp

drpet49 · 12/12/2021 17:46

The religious people I know (Christian, Catholic and Muslim) don’t have any issue with someone who is gay. One of them has been in a gay relationship for 10+ years,

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 21:03

And the Bible is about Jesus (obviously grin) - anything else is bollocks written by man That did make me laugh Grin

Thanks to everyone who's contributed, lots to think about. I think i'm going to struggle to accept my relatives views on this, esp as it's not as straightforward in terms of religious instruction as i thought it might be & he is choosing to take the 'i don't want these people in my sight' line.

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Knitter99 · 12/12/2021 21:16

The Church of Scotland has proposals out for approval right now to allow same sex marriage.

Every Minister I know, and I know a fair few, will vote in favour. But I am sure there will be plenty who will vote against. It will be close. The vote is due in May 2022.

www.churchofscotland.org.uk/about-us/our-views/same-sex-marriage

Love one another.As I have loved you, so you must love one another John 13 v34

Etinoxaurus · 12/12/2021 21:23

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

MartyHart · 12/12/2021 21:29

I would counter pretty much any judgemental attitude from a Christian with let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I'm an atheist who went through a VERY catholic education.

escapingthecity · 12/12/2021 21:31

This helps on parts of the Bible which refer to homosexuality: https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2015/08/the77bibleversesson_homosexu.html

The attitude of the church to homosexuality isn't homogenous. Large parts of the Catholic Church are very anti gay still - though that's not necessarily reflected in every congregation. The Church of England is quite mixed, but there's an Inclusive Church movement within it which is very welcoming of anyone of different sexualities.

Brigittebidet · 12/12/2021 21:33

Life long Christian here - Church of England for what it’s worth. All I can tell you is that the church is obsessed to the point of tedium with who puts what where. The bible mentions sodomy a massive total of 6 times throughout both old and New Testament. There is far more about charity and love but hey ho…

thistimelastweek · 12/12/2021 21:33

Leviticus 18: 22 - you shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Used by nasty old bigots to justify homophobia.

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 22:04

@Brigittebidet

Life long Christian here - Church of England for what it’s worth. All I can tell you is that the church is obsessed to the point of tedium with who puts what where. The bible mentions sodomy a massive total of 6 times throughout both old and New Testament. There is far more about charity and love but hey ho…
Thanks for all your posts. I think this is what really baffles me - why is something that is mentioned so rarely, given the size of the bible, given such importance? And surely the instruction to love one another regardless of differences should override any condemnation of gay men, though i am familiar with 'hate the sin not the sinner'.
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Catinabeanbag · 12/12/2021 23:13

There are 6 so called 'clobber passages' in the Bible traditionally used to bash LGBT people.
First one is Genesis 19:1-8 - the Sodom and Gomorrah story, which is more about inhospitality and rape (straight) than it is about LGB people.
Then there's Leviticus:
Leviticus 18:22: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Romans 1:21-27 is the next one, and pretty much everyone conveniently ignores the 'therefore' at the start of the passage, meaning you also have to read the bit before the 'clobber' passage.

I Corinthians 6:5-11. A list of people who won't get into heaven. If your version of the Bible includes homosexuality in that list, it's a dodgy translation, as the word 'homosexuality' wasn't added in to the Bible until 1947.

I Timothy 1:5-11. Another list of the dodgy lot who have sinned. This one isn't used so much - it's the first five that get quoted all the time.

There are a lot of books you can read about the cultural / historical contexts of the times these passages were written, which indicate the anti-gay meanings put on them in more modern times might not be what was intended at the time (esp the new testament stuff).

Psalm 139 (to me) is a counter to that, especially 'For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made'
because I had it drummed into me when I was a kid that God doesn't make mistakes.
Therefore I am neither a mistake nor a 'dreadful sinner'.

The big issue (I think) is whether you think being gay is something that you're born, or if it's a choice. Because whatever people / churches think about that question then determines which path of acceptance (or not) they will go down.
The evangelical lot mostly think it's a choice, or that being gay isn't necesarily a sin, but any same-sex behviour IS a sin - it's the choice to act on it which is the sin. Ironic really, given that the new testament has an lot more about sexual ethics between men and women than it does about two men or two women....yet we're the bad guys.
Paul says he'd prefer that no one married at all, but you never hear that preached from the pulpit. Apparently it's ok for straight people to act on their desires, but not gay people.

A lot of churches (Church in Wales, CofE to a certain extent, Church in Scotland, Quakers, Methodists, for example) don't think being gay is a sin, and that's shaped their responses to LGBT people. The CofE's got a bit of catching up to do, but I think it's getting there - slowly, and some churches are far more accepting than others, but the CofE being a 'broad church' allows for that range of views.

I grew up in an evangelical church (so v anti gay) and now go to a CofE church. The church I go to has (so far) been really welcoming and inclusive, and I've been involved in various things with no issues. I'm not generally 'out' in the congregation (though a far few people know), but I would imagine there'd be some who may not be happy... but that's to be expected in any congregation really. Leadership know and are fine - even with me being married. It really does vary from church to church.

BobbieT1999 · 12/12/2021 23:22

I'd be interested in the original meanings of the texts pre-translation. I keep coming across bits of Christian dogma that are only so because somebody chose to interpret the ancient Greek in a way that suited their own prejudices.

James I was a one for this, most notably about women AFAIK...The King James Bible has a lot of answer for re. the treatment of women in the centuries since (witch hunting included!).

I'm sure I came across something recently that said the text in the original (/older) language meant peadophilia but it was translated differently and I've got a really strong feeling it was translated into homophobic language instead...I could be mistaken, I didn't have a chance to look into it.

I'm not a Christian but had some basic c of e education growing up and what I learned from it was that jesus' message of love thy neighbour and let he who cast the first stone, etc, trumps all.

kmblark · 13/12/2021 12:17

IME arguing with a homophobe rarely gets you anywhere.

picklemewalnuts · 13/12/2021 13:07

Refreshing thread, thank you.

The overarching message of the New Testament is love. Every choice and decision should be made through that lens.
The Bible says a lot about charity and looking after the widow, orphan, and outsider.

We need to stop beating Christians up about odd passages in the Bible, and stop using those passages to justify our own bigoted behaviour.

I have some sympathy with people who don't think the word 'marriage' should be used to describe same sex unions. Marriage used to have a specific meaning, about estate planning and heirs.
The Bible isn't helpful on marriage, that's a pretty secular thing.

picklemewalnuts · 13/12/2021 13:11

The Old Testament also says we should stone witches, beat children and not eat shellfish among other things. We've managed to move on about all that, so why hang on to passages that seem to condemn same sex unions.

At the time, various 'foreign god' worship behaviours like sleeping with temple prostitutes were the worry. That's what the Pauline passages are aiming at.

ElectricDeChocobo · 13/12/2021 16:27

We need to stop beating Christians up about odd passages in the Bible, and stop using those passages to justify our own bigoted behaviour.

Well given that those passages have been used to justify persecution around the world...

twelly · 13/12/2021 16:36

I think the difference between having a belief and actions. I believe that people are allowed their own views, if a christian or indeed a person of any other religion believes only believes in heterosexual relationships then that is their perogative and that is fine - I do not label them phobic. If they however are hostile to gay people on a individual basis then that is wrong. The word phobic is in my view not justifiable as they are entitled to a view. I don't agree with smoking but I don't have a go at every smoker and am friends with many smokers - I am not phobic about smokers - the same in my view applies to people who have opinions about sexuality

picklemewalnuts · 13/12/2021 16:58

@ElectricDeChocobo

We need to stop beating Christians up about odd passages in the Bible, and stop using those passages to justify our own bigoted behaviour.

Well given that those passages have been used to justify persecution around the world...

Exactly! Both need to stop!

Those passages mustn't be used to justify anything! Don't use them to attack Christians, don't use them to justify bigotry.

The forming of the bible is complicated, involving loads of narrow minded people trying to preserve what they saw as truth, translators, and thousands of years with all the political shenanigans and cultural change you'd expect in 2,000+ years.

ElectricDeChocobo · 13/12/2021 17:08

@twelly

I think the difference between having a belief and actions. I believe that people are allowed their own views, if a christian or indeed a person of any other religion believes only believes in heterosexual relationships then that is their perogative and that is fine - I do not label them phobic. If they however are hostile to gay people on a individual basis then that is wrong. The word phobic is in my view not justifiable as they are entitled to a view. I don't agree with smoking but I don't have a go at every smoker and am friends with many smokers - I am not phobic about smokers - the same in my view applies to people who have opinions about sexuality
By hostile on an individual basis to you include people who campaign or vote against gay rights? Who tell gay people they are going to hell?

Of course you can be homophobic based on your views, the same as you can be racist based on your views.

Smoking is harmful. Homosexuality is not.