Christianity & homophobia

[airforsharon]

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

@BobbieT1999

No judgement in my previous post at all, apologies if it came across that way, I was just curious. Thank you for explaining your experiences :)

No, it didn't comes across that way, don't worry! When I read my post back, I realized it sounded a little defensive but that was an accident.

@Flutterflybutterby

(I also don't go around banging on about homosexuality, and am only sharing my experience of converting from bisexual to Christian because we are on a religion board and you asked a question specifically related to this issue, and this issue is a fairly big deal to me so thought I'd share my experience )

Converting from bisexuality? So you're one of those 'pray away the gay' types?

Why do you need to quote the bible?

Church-going is not an excuse for homophobia.

Simply tell this person that they should refrain from making homophobic comments in your presence and that you don't agree with such inappropriate, discriminatory views...or even better stop interacting with them.

I don't know what this means, 'pray away the gay'. I think I might have confused you with my wording which, reading it back, was a little misleading. I didn't convert FROM bisexual and directly TO Christian - in that I went from being one to being another with no overlap. Just suddenly said a prayer and BOOM! Heterosexual, done If that's what you mean.

But, when I converted to Christianity I was both bisexual and a functioning alcoholic, yes. Now I am neither of those things. I have changed in a lot of other ways too, but this thread was asking specifically about sexuality which is why this was the thing I specifically mentioned. The way that I realized the changes I wanted and/or needed to make in my life, and also thr way that I found myself able to change, was through both studying the Bible and praying.

So I'm not sure if this makes me one of the 'pray away the gay' types you're referring to as I've never heard this phrase before. I'm just sharing my personal experience.

I think the reason that homosexuality is talked about a lot by Christians today is because it's easy to judge people for doing something you have no interest in doing. Most of us do it. We see it all the time on mumsnet when people ask why on earth anyone could eat McDonalds when it tastes so awful. Or saying how they can't imagine eating a whole biscuit to themselves as they share one with 5 other people and feel full for the rest of the day (sometimes I wish I was like those people).

Also the main difference between homosexuality and other sins is that most people who do it are happy to be in a homosexual relationship. With most other sins we still do them but we are trying not to.

I have plenty of friends/relatives who are in homosexual relationships and that's fine. For me personally as a Christian I do my best not to do that myself, which is easy for me. I'm still working on some of the other things we are not supposed to do. The only thing I would object to is having a church leader at my church who was openly in a homosexual relationship. Because they would be saying that this particular sin is fine to ignore. It would be like having a church leader who didn't believe in Christianity but was a Muslim or a Hindu instead. Even then I wouldn't say anything because it's not my place to judge, I would just quietly leave and to to a different church instead.

@Flutterflybutterby

I don't know what this means, 'pray away the gay'. I think I might have confused you with my wording which, reading it back, was a little misleading. I didn't convert FROM bisexual and directly TO Christian - in that I went from being one to being another with no overlap. Just suddenly said a prayer and BOOM! Heterosexual, done If that's what you mean.

But, when I converted to Christianity I was both bisexual and a functioning alcoholic, yes. Now I am neither of those things. I have changed in a lot of other ways too, but this thread was asking specifically about sexuality which is why this was the thing I specifically mentioned. The way that I realized the changes I wanted and/or needed to make in my life, and also thr way that I found myself able to change, was through both studying the Bible and praying.

So I'm not sure if this makes me one of the 'pray away the gay' types you're referring to as I've never heard this phrase before. I'm just sharing my personal experience.

People who believe in conversion therapy through prayer, essentially.

Also the main difference between homosexuality and other sins is that most people who do it are happy to be in a homosexual relationship. With most other sins we still do them but we are trying not to.

Almost like it harms absolutely no one and there is no reason for it to be a sin...

@amoosee

Also the main difference between homosexuality and other sins is that most people who do it are happy to be in a homosexual relationship. With most other sins we still do them but we are trying not to.

Almost like it harms absolutely no one and there is no reason for it to be a sin...

I really do understand this point of view. I too struggled with accepting what the bible said about homosexuality. I sought desperately for a reason for it to be wrong - and not for my own benefit, but because I have so many gay friends, and just couldn't accept that they were sinning just by being themselves. I looked at the idea that the passages about homosexuality had been mistranslated, I tried to convince myself it was just a cultural issue at the time it was written, or that the passages were actually referring to men having relationships with young boys, and not other men, etc. Just tried to investigate any other option, other than accepting that it was how it looked. That the bible said that homosexuality was a sin.

But eventually, at some point, I had to just be honest with myself. That IS what it says. As much as even other Christians these days are reluctant to accept it, or still looking for ways for it to not be so.

The same for alcoholism; I also had to realise and accept that the bible says that to be a 'drunkard' is sinful, and that I was probably more like one of these 'drunkards' rather than one of the people who just drank wine occasionally with Jesus!

I don't judge anyone, and I don't believe it's our place as Christians to judge and shame. But I also think that we do need to accept and be honest about what the Bible clearly states. We can't pick and choose the parts of the bible that we like, or that fit neatly in with what we believe today. This isn't kind, or loving, towards other people. If we do this we are being weak, and lying, and watering down the word of God. It isn't supposed to be easy to stand firmly by God's word. Jesus even warned us that the world might hate us; that it had hated Him too. If standing by the word of God makes us unpopular then that has to be okay.

I don't think that homosexuality is any worse than any other sin, and we all sin, constantly, even if we try so hard not to. So I don't think I'm any better than anyone who is homosexual! And if anyone was removing anything else from the bible then I'd tell them that they were wrong too.

I just think that, yes, it's hard to accept. And that's okay. But we just can't deny that it's there. We can't just remove it because we don't like it, or ignore it, or make up excuses about it. It doesn't matter what we think. It's in there. We either choose to follow God's word, or we don't. But we can't just pick and choose the nice bits and leave the tough bits.

I guarantee you @Flutterflybutterby, and every other Christian, are very much picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you follow.

So now you're comparing homosexuality to alcoholism. One is harmful, the other is not.

And I find it hard to believe you still have gay friends.

@amoosee

So now you're comparing homosexuality to alcoholism. One is harmful, the other is not.

And I find it hard to believe you still have gay friends.

If you'd read my other posts, (which I'm assuming you must have since you've replied?) you'll remember that I said thay when I converted to Christianity, I was both bisexual, and I was also a functioning alcoholic. Hence why I mentioned alcoholism - because the bible contained information about two areas of my life - alcoholism and bisexuality - which I then had to consider, accept or reject, and act on.

I'm sure you are very aware thay this is why I mentioned both alcoholism and bisexuality, and not because I am trying to "compare" the two things to each other in any significant way, other than the fact that these were both important parts of my life and identity prior to my becoming a Christian.

So please don't try to twist my words. I appreciate that this is a sensitive topic but I feel I have been open and clear about my experience and you must have know that this was why I mentioned alcoholism. As it was, like bisexuality, a big part of my life. Even sensitive topics can be discussed in an honest manner, no need for us to try to twist each other's words.

Thank you

"And I find it hard to believe you still have gay friends."

That's fine. You're very welcome to your opinion!

@Mumoblue

I guarantee you *@Flutterflybutterby*, and every other Christian, are very much picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you follow.

This is a very interesting view! Thank you for sharing. I do believe that I stand by the bible, and certainly do try to live my life according to it, but will reevaluate and speak with other Christians about this issue to make sure. Always good to be reminded to check in with ourselves!

Right, I've deleted about six passionate posts. They come down to the same thing - I'm an atheist, and those homophobic verses in the Bible are one of the reasons why. So I should get off this thread.

I'm not twisting your words, you said you were an alcoholic and bisexual as though they are both negative things to be overcome. That you can just willingly stop being bisexual.

I think it’s important to remember the medical historical context. They didn’t have antibiotics. They didn’t have condoms. They didn’t even have soap. STDs were still a thing and could cause infertility or deformity in children (or in the case of syphillis, even madness).

So it’s no surprise that the wise people in most ancient communities strongly argued that children should be born into a monogamous relationship between virgins. This ensured that no one had a STD and gave the children the best chance of being conceived and born healthy.

If for example everyone was shagging around having loads of premarital sex (and anal sex in particular would have been a pretty germy event pre-condoms, pre-soap and pre-modern-hygiene), then the infertility and miscarriage rates would have been higher. Etc etc.

What has this got to do with modern homosexuality? Well, not much, but I think it’s important to remember that the ancient Bibke writers weren’t being randomly ignorant bigots, they were doing public health messaging as best they could about medical problems that could destroy their communities but about which they didn’t know much and that they couldn’t cure.

@amoosee

I'm not twisting your words, you said you were an alcoholic and bisexual as though they are both negative things to be overcome. That you can just willingly stop being bisexual.

Well, I feel that you are slightly trying to twist my account of a personal experience, but that's okay. We are all guilty of that sometimes.

As a Christian, I do try to behave in a way that isn't sinful, yes. What I'm trying to illustrate to you is that humans are, in our view, sinful by nature. While homosexuality is a sin in the bible, so are many things. None of us, through our own behavior, can behave in a way that is perfect in the eyes of God. That's why we need Jesus. So really it doesn't matter what the sin is that we are discussing. Homosexuality isn't worse than anything else listed as a sin in the bible. But it is listed as a sin in the bible.

Out of curiousity, would you be surprised to hear that I also still have friends who drink heavily? Are divorced? Are criminals? Are cheating on their spouses? Etc. Because I do. If we searched the world for people who are free from sin, we wouldn't find anyone, myself included. So why would I avoid other sinners?

@Flutterflybutterby

I will say, though, that I believe when considering from a Christian point of view, we need only consider the New Testament, because when Jesus died, the laws given by God to the Israelites were no longer valid, so we don't need to adhere to Old Testament laws these days. Much the same as how Christians can now get tattoos, eat pork, and wear clothing made from more than one material! So the verses on homosexuality that personally made me change were:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."
1 Timothy 9-10

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Romans 1:26-27

I also want to say that I find the church in the UK is much more lenient about homosexuality than in other countries. My husband is from country B, and we live in country C (neither the UK). I think British churches are very affected by British culture when it comes to things like this, whereas the other churches we go to seem to stick purely to the bible when forming their beliefs and teachings. So I think this is why British churches either don't speak about homosexuality at all, or say it's okay. Cultural differences.

If we're going to quote bronze aged nonsense let's be accurate Jesus made it clear that the old testament rules were to be followed so let's hope you're ready to live by Leviticus

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

@Thirtytimesround

I think it’s important to remember the medical historical context. They didn’t have antibiotics. They didn’t have condoms. They didn’t even have soap. STDs were still a thing and could cause infertility or deformity in children (or in the case of syphillis, even madness).

So it’s no surprise that the wise people in most ancient communities strongly argued that children should be born into a monogamous relationship between virgins. This ensured that no one had a STD and gave the children the best chance of being conceived and born healthy.

If for example everyone was shagging around having loads of premarital sex (and anal sex in particular would have been a pretty germy event pre-condoms, pre-soap and pre-modern-hygiene), then the infertility and miscarriage rates would have been higher. Etc etc.

What has this got to do with modern homosexuality? Well, not much, but I think it’s important to remember that the ancient Bibke writers weren’t being randomly ignorant bigots, they were doing public health messaging as best they could about medical problems that could destroy their communities but about which they didn’t know much and that they couldn’t cure.

I don't see why a monogamous homosexual couple were more likely to get STD's that a monogamous heterosexual couple. I think bigotry was definitely the bigger inspiration there.

So really it doesn't matter what the sin is that we are discussing. Homosexuality isn't worse than anything else listed as a sin in the bible. But it is listed as a sin in the bible.

It's a "sin" that harms absolutely no one.

Out of curiousity, would you be surprised to hear that I also still have friends who drink heavily? Are divorced? Are criminals? Are cheating on their spouses? Etc. Because I do. If we searched the world for people who are free from sin, we wouldn't find anyone, myself included. So why would I avoid other sinners?

I'm more surprised that a gay person would want to be friends with someone so homophobic. Do you routinely tell them that you think they're going to hell?

Pregnancy is far more dangerous to women than anal sex. Relentless pregnancies from a young age are particularly dangerous. I'm not saying that sexual rules and conventions are all bad, clearly I believe that children should be protected from sexual exploitation and every society has sexual taboos and protections, not all of which are about controlling patriarchal knowledge of inheritance lines and increasing the number of heirs and field workers a man can bang out in a lifetime. Just most of them.

@amoosee

So really it doesn't matter what the sin is that we are discussing. Homosexuality isn't worse than anything else listed as a sin in the bible. But it is listed as a sin in the bible.

It's a "sin" that harms absolutely no one.

Out of curiousity, would you be surprised to hear that I also still have friends who drink heavily? Are divorced? Are criminals? Are cheating on their spouses? Etc. Because I do. If we searched the world for people who are free from sin, we wouldn't find anyone, myself included. So why would I avoid other sinners?

I'm more surprised that a gay person would want to be friends with someone so homophobic. Do you routinely tell them that you think they're going to hell?

Are you a Christian? Or do you have much understanding about Christianity? I feel that the answer to both might be 'no', because you seem to be supremely missing the point. The point is that everyone, homosexual or otherwise, is a sinner. Literally everyone who is on earth, and who has ever lived, except Jesus Christ Himself. Everyone is a sinner. You're clinging to this idea of homosexuals being sinners, as if they're the only people who are sinners. But we ALL are. So why is it so difficult for you to accept that homosexuals are also sinners? I'm a little confused by this.

If you can't accept this, can you accept that anyone else is a sinner? Do you have an idea of who you feel should be considered a sinner and who shouldn't? Asking out of genuine curiosity. Like I said, your thoughts and opinions are welcome. I'd only be concerned by your refusal to acknowledge people as sinners if you were a Christian because this is sort of the entire basis of the religion If we weren't all sinners, why would we need saving?

Also, like a PP said, I too find rather unhelpful this new fashion of declaring everyone to be 'phobic' of everything. It really is just a way of silencing or shouting down anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly agree with everything we say, isn't it? Really stands in the way of open and honest communication. If you'd rather people of other opinions and religions and cultures to yourself just shut up and never spoke, just say that

Hello @JustAnotherPoster00. Sorry for the late reply, I only just noticed your message! And thank you for sharing those quotes. Actually, I think you've misunderstood them slightly, so I'll share the Christian view of these quotes.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

The accomplisment here refers to the death and resurrection of Christ. When Christ died, His final words were "It is finished."

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)
If we read this verse, we can see that this was said by Jesus to reveal the hypocrisy of those Jews who wanted to kill Jesus and tried to use the law of Moses to justify this. Obviously it was also said prior to His crucifixion.

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

In the version you sent, the word 'invalid' is used, but in other versions we can see 'fail', 'become void', 'be overturned'.

In Luke 22:20, Jesus introduces the new covenant, which was ratified by His blood. ('And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".'). But this new covenant does not make the law invalid, as the verse you sent says. It doesn't cause it to fail, become void, or be overturned. Nothing like this. The new covenant, instead, COMPLETES the law. The law is not nullified by Christ, but it is fulfilled by Him.

So this is why, as Christians, we no longer need to follow the laws given to the Israelites through Moses

But we ALL are. So why is it so difficult for you to accept that homosexuals are also sinners? I'm a little confused by this.

Because sin is bad, by definition. Many of the things that are considered sins are sins for a reason. Murder, theft, hatred all are negative, and all have victims and negative consequences. Homosexuality doesn't. Being in a same sex relationship is no worse than being in an opposite sex relationship.

And because for hundreds of years, people have been using the idea of homosexuality as a "sin" to persecute and discriminate against gay people. To vote against them having rights, attempt to "convert" them to heterosexuality, and to tell them that who they are and acting on their perfectly natural, harmless desires is wrong and that they either have to spend the rest of their lives. Or marry someone they don't love.

No one has ever given me a compelling reason why homosexuality is wrong and who exactly it harms.