Christianity & homophobia

[airforsharon]

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

And on marriage, the idea is that marriage is a sacrament (a kind of sacred pact with God, along with baptism, holy communion etc) which is the union of a man and a woman for the purposes of procreation.

The idea that marriage is about partnership or fulfilment is not really at the heart of it.

I stopped learning this stuff at GCSE level though, there are probably many nuances I missed!

@EnidFrighten ah! Thanks for that - and for your awkward teenage self that did the asking - I figured the church would have an answer.😁

I think as is the case with many issues it depends on how we define words, interpret them and apply them. There are many different interpretations of "phobic." The other issue is free thought and speech - at what point does one person's actions impact on freedom of others. We don't have total free speech as we are confined by our society's laws - however, those laws and "norms" will be and are challenged. Therefore we can't say that just because something is the law we need to agree with it - it works both ways, different groups have different opinions and they are all entitled to their view. Some views are deemed so unpalatable that society does not recognise them as valid and in some cases they are legislated against.

I believe in freedom but recognise that we don't have total freedom to say or do what we want, but I also believe that the current climate stops debate and silences those who don't agree with whatever is the current agenda. My concern that this can so easily be applied to any argument with any group - whether this be christian, jew, gay, heterosexual or any other group and therefore I think using terms such as "phobic" is a term applied in a way to silence people with different views. It may be that some people do not view it in that way but it has become an insult and is in my view incorrect. I don't believe that you can call people homophobic because they don't agree with "gay marriage." It is in my view a way of shutting down debate. If we want people to agree with our views using more emotive words does not help.

I'm a mainstream CofE practising Christian. I have loads of LGBT friends, and the Cof E has loads of LGBT clergy.

Give Leviticus a read. It's full of rules that would make you laugh and I imagine your relative does not follow.

@twelly

I think as is the case with many issues it depends on how we define words, interpret them and apply them. There are many different interpretations of "phobic." The other issue is free thought and speech - at what point does one person's actions impact on freedom of others. We don't have total free speech as we are confined by our society's laws - however, those laws and "norms" will be and are challenged. Therefore we can't say that just because something is the law we need to agree with it - it works both ways, different groups have different opinions and they are all entitled to their view. Some views are deemed so unpalatable that society does not recognise them as valid and in some cases they are legislated against.

I believe in freedom but recognise that we don't have total freedom to say or do what we want, but I also believe that the current climate stops debate and silences those who don't agree with whatever is the current agenda. My concern that this can so easily be applied to any argument with any group - whether this be christian, jew, gay, heterosexual or any other group and therefore I think using terms such as "phobic" is a term applied in a way to silence people with different views. It may be that some people do not view it in that way but it has become an insult and is in my view incorrect. I don't believe that you can call people homophobic because they don't agree with "gay marriage." It is in my view a way of shutting down debate. If we want people to agree with our views using more emotive words does not help.

If you disagree with gay marriage then you think gay people do not deserve the same rights as straight people. And it's not just about simple disagreement, it's about campaigning to prevent people from having these rights.

I assume you also think people who are campaign against equal rights for women are not sexist.

@twelly
If we want people to agree with our views using more emotive words does not help.

So what word do you propose we use for people who think it's wrong to be gay and who actively try to stop gay and bisexual people from having equal rights?

I don't agree, mordinvasnormandy.

Being equal does not mean being the same. Marriage was a set of rules brought in to police inheritance and property, to give men control of their offspring, and to preserve wealth in families. It counterbalances the power and weakness off each sex. Women were in a less powerful financial position than men, less able to earn while rearing children. Men were less able to get heirs than women. So marriage created a partnership offering protection and obligation to both.

Same sex couples wouldn't have had the same power imbalance.

Civil partnerships addressed some of the remaining obstacles for same sex couples- next of kin decisions etc.

Changing the meaning of the word marriage to refer a lifelong romantic commitment between two individuals regardless of their sex is a big deal. It's possible to question it, without being homophobic or expecting same sex couples to be celibate.

To redefine the word marriage to apply to same sex unions after thousands of years of it specifically excluding that is just not a matter of 'phobic attitudes'. In Ancient Greece, men and women had same sex lovers and no one batted an eyelid. Marriage was a thoroughly different thing.

My personal opinion is that the choice must be made by the individuals involved- it's between them and God. I know gay Christians who choose to be celibate, Christians in same sex relationships who have civil partnerships, and Christians in same sex marriages. I believe that the definition of marriage has shifted and the church should shift with it. I know those who think differently are not homophobic- though some may be, as in all parts of society.

I believe that the Episcopal church in Scotland accepts gay marriage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40190204

Also regarding the " sin of Sodom" - have a look at Ezekiel 16:49. It is about being "arrogant" and "overfed", "unconcerned with the poor and needy". So sounds more like a lack of social justice.

The actual account of sexual sin in the account of Sodom and Gomorrah is to do with gang rape, not consensual sex at all.

@HmmGrey

That's great that you starting looking into all of this and found faith during the lockdown. I'm curious that you say you don't belong to any denomination though, because (to me) some of your language and words used sound very 'churchspeak' and as if you've been immersed in it for years (and evangelical church at that).

Do you also think the people who believe white people are superior and campaign against rights for ethnic minorities aren't racist if they don't go around screaming at and beating up people?

You say this like it's a rare opinion. Lots of people believe their race is superior and believe me- it's not just white people, as someone from a mixed ethnic background

I had a family friend tell my mum they were glad my dad is black. Now I have a ds who's white. I wonder what they think of him.

I don't like things like that, but people will always have these kind of opinions. We can challenge and debate people but yeah, lots of people think whatever group they belong to is better than others. There will always be people who think their lifestyle is better than others

Unless it meets the standard for a hate crime (eg directly attacking a gay person, inciting violence/hatred ) there's not much h else you can do

@ThatFlamingCandle

Do you also think the people who believe white people are superior and campaign against rights for ethnic minorities aren't racist if they don't go around screaming at and beating up people?

You say this like it's a rare opinion. Lots of people believe their race is superior and believe me- it's not just white people, as someone from a mixed ethnic background

I had a family friend tell my mum they were glad my dad is black. Now I have a ds who's white. I wonder what they think of him.

I don't like things like that, but people will always have these kind of opinions. We can challenge and debate people but yeah, lots of people think whatever group they belong to is better than others. There will always be people who think their lifestyle is better than others

Unless it meets the standard for a hate crime (eg directly attacking a gay person, inciting violence/hatred ) there's not much h else you can do

I never said it was rare. Unfortunately I agree that it's not. I was responding to a poster saying that campaigning against gay rights does not make you homophobic.

Changing the meaning of the word marriage to refer a lifelong romantic commitment between two individuals regardless of their sex is a big deal. It's possible to question it, without being homophobic or expecting same sex couples to be celibate.

If people are against same-sex marriage then fine, don't have one. It's people who actively try to stop others from having the legal right to marriage when it has no impact on their own lives than I have a problem with.

The Church: 'Marriage is good. Living 'in sin' is bad.

Gay person: gets married

The Church: 'No, not like that - only for straight people....'

If you are a vicar though, it does impact you if you're expected to perform same sex marriages! Just as it impacts my vicar friends who are very pro same sex marriage and have to battle constantly about their position in a church that still doesn't let them (though it will, I'm quite sure).

I think it takes longer than a generation to 'unpick' such long-standing issues.

May I ask how old you are, Mordinvasnormandy? I grew up in a socially conservative area. When civil partnerships were first happening I was bewildered- I couldn't grapple with how you could have two brides or two grooms. I literally couldn't envisage it and thought one partner would 'be' the groom and the other the bride (as it happens that's pretty much how a couple I know did it recently).

Now it's obvious that you have two brides, two grooms, both dressed in the usual bride/groom regalia. 12 years ago, it really wasn't obvious. It wasn't something my brain could process.

Believe me I know how stupid and idiotic that sounds. But to a somewhat literal minded woman from a not particularly trendy part of the world it just wasn't that easy to grasp.

@Catinabeanbag

‘Churchspeak’ or simply spiritual? I’ve fully invested myself in learning about my creator, Father, saviour and friend because I spent many years living a lie. By his grace, I have learnt a lot and I’ll never stop seeking him and learning. He’s my everything.

I’ve had no relationship with ‘the church’, in my adult life until October last year. My local church is Anglican but I’m not. I don’t belong to a denomination, I belong to Jesus.

@picklemewalnuts

If you are a vicar though, it does impact you if you're expected to perform same sex marriages! Just as it impacts my vicar friends who are very pro same sex marriage and have to battle constantly about their position in a church that still doesn't let them (though it will, I'm quite sure).

I think it takes longer than a generation to 'unpick' such long-standing issues.

May I ask how old you are, Mordinvasnormandy? I grew up in a socially conservative area. When civil partnerships were first happening I was bewildered- I couldn't grapple with how you could have two brides or two grooms. I literally couldn't envisage it and thought one partner would 'be' the groom and the other the bride (as it happens that's pretty much how a couple I know did it recently).

Now it's obvious that you have two brides, two grooms, both dressed in the usual bride/groom regalia. 12 years ago, it really wasn't obvious. It wasn't something my brain could process.

Believe me I know how stupid and idiotic that sounds. But to a somewhat literal minded woman from a not particularly trendy part of the world it just wasn't that easy to grasp.

Currently religious organisations do not legally have to carry out same-sex marriages if they don't want to, but still some opposed the law. Because they see homosexuality as wrong. Because they are homophobic.

I too am old enough to remember when civil partnerships came into place. And as a young person coming to terms with my sexuality it was difficult to see MPs claiming on the house of commons that the family was being destroyed and will lead to the proliferation of homosexuality. Outside of Parliament they were less civil. Gay people are sinners, deviants, it would lead to the legalisation of beastiality and paedophilia. And as I mentioned before it wasn't just civil partnerships and marriage equality. It wasn't that long ago that section 28 was repealed. But I suppose all the campaigners bleating about homosexual recruitment were just a bit bewildered.

I am a Christian. Prior to becoming a Christian, I considered myself bisexual. These days I don't, I am married, settled, and very happy. Before I was a Christian, I couldn't accept that the Bible said anything against homosexuality. But having read the bible there are clearly some verses where homosexuality is listed as sinful, and I believe that the bible is the word of God - so I no longer try to make excuses or erase the parts that I don't like or that don't fit in with today's ideas. I accept the whole bible for what it teaches and I live my life according to the bible and God Himself and nothing else. I don't judge other people for their behavior, but I have changed, in many ways, for myself and for God. I know that some people consider the Bible to be homophobic because of what it teaches about homosexuality. I know that this will make Christianity even more unpopular these days. But I believe that we can't water down the word of God; we take it or we leave it. I personally choose to take it.

@Flutterflybutterby

I am a Christian. Prior to becoming a Christian, I considered myself bisexual. These days I don't, I am married, settled, and very happy. Before I was a Christian, I couldn't accept that the Bible said anything against homosexuality. But having read the bible there are clearly some verses where homosexuality is listed as sinful, and I believe that the bible is the word of God - so I no longer try to make excuses or erase the parts that I don't like or that don't fit in with today's ideas. I accept the whole bible for what it teaches and I live my life according to the bible and God Himself and nothing else. I don't judge other people for their behavior, but I have changed, in many ways, for myself and for God. I know that some people consider the Bible to be homophobic because of what it teaches about homosexuality. I know that this will make Christianity even more unpopular these days. But I believe that we can't water down the word of God; we take it or we leave it. I personally choose to take it.

Thankfully many Christians these days don't think like you.

I will say, though, that I believe when considering from a Christian point of view, we need only consider the New Testament, because when Jesus died, the laws given by God to the Israelites were no longer valid, so we don't need to adhere to Old Testament laws these days. Much the same as how Christians can now get tattoos, eat pork, and wear clothing made from more than one material! So the verses on homosexuality that personally made me change were:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."
1 Timothy 9-10

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Romans 1:26-27

I also want to say that I find the church in the UK is much more lenient about homosexuality than in other countries. My husband is from country B, and we live in country C (neither the UK). I think British churches are very affected by British culture when it comes to things like this, whereas the other churches we go to seem to stick purely to the bible when forming their beliefs and teachings. So I think this is why British churches either don't speak about homosexuality at all, or say it's okay. Cultural differences.

(I also don't go around banging on about homosexuality, and am only sharing my experience of converting from bisexual to Christian because we are on a religion board and you asked a question specifically related to this issue, and this issue is a fairly big deal to me so thought I'd share my experience )

@hmmgrey , your posts are so well written and clear.

@Flutterflybutterby curious how you're no longer bisexual. On deciding it was anathema to your religion, did you suddenly stop feeling an attraction towards women? Because many would argue that you weren't really bisexual if that was the case.

British culture is quite homophobic as it happens. Many Christians who were also homosexual found a haven in religion because the greater extremes of homophobia were reduced by a loving Christian community, and by finding that Christianity perhaps due to its Pauline lack of enthusiasm about marriage and reproduction, is almost uniquely suited among world religions to a theology of sexuality that includes homosexuality as a part of God's creation.

[quote BobbieT1999]@Flutterflybutterby curious how you're no longer bisexual. On deciding it was anathema to your religion, did you suddenly stop feeling an attraction towards women? Because many would argue that you weren't really bisexual if that was the case.[/quote]
I also used to be a functioning alcoholic, but now have no desire to drink. It's amazing what can be acheived through prayer! You're welcome to feel that perhaps I was neither of these things in the past, and I have no way to prove to you on here. All I can give you is my word, and I don't have a motive to lie. But I can understand if this is difficult to accept from a stranger on a message board.

No judgement in my previous post at all, apologies if it came across that way, I was just curious. Thank you for explaining your experiences :)