Christianity & homophobia

[airforsharon]

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

The Bible is very clear on this topic. The scriptures don’t leave room for interpretation like previous posters have suggested. Neither is the Bible to be understood by one verse or book. People commonly refer to ceremonial laws (Leviticus) and question why Christians no longer follow them all. Jesus fulfilled the law so we now live under grace. The Bible isn’t carnal, it’s spiritual. The Lord is living and His word is a double edged sword. It equally blesses and convicts us, although mankind often rejects it, misreading it as condemnation. The Lord loves us, He doesn’t condemn. Homophobia is evil.

The Bible points to 19 sexual acts that are sinful, 17 heterosexual acts and then homosexuality and beastiality. Homosexuality receives a disproportionate about of attention, hate and scrutiny.

God created us man and woman. It’s the reason why only men and women can procreate. It’s His design. We live in a fallen world and we try to create our own design in many ways. We all sin and seek to be the ‘god’ of our own lives.

Jesus came to connect us back to the Father and restore the relationship we once had. Relationship with God is not religion. It’s often confused in the same way the Pharisees perverted the faith. Yes the Lord is love and we are encouraged to “love your neighbour as yourself”. That’s why it should be handled in love. Truly loving someone means being able to share the truth even it’s ‘controversial’ in today’s culture. As you said OP, God loves the sinner but hates the sin. It comes in between Him and His creation. Homosexuality is no greater than any other sin. The Lord wants us to know our identity in Christ and not assume an identity based on our sexual preference.

Same sex attraction isn’t sinful. God made beautiful beings but acting on those thoughts/desires is a sin. Most of us choose our own way and put things before God. All these things are sinful.

Your relatives response is sad and unfortunately not uncommon. It’s not a true depiction of God’s word or how a follower of Christ should react. Many Christians haven’t actually encountered God’s love through experience so often struggle to extend the same love and grace He shows us. None of us have the right to judge only the Lord. He gifted us His word and choice. We can choose to listen, follow him and receive the free gift of salvation. Or we can reject it and live our own way.

Same sex attraction isn’t sinful. God made beautiful beings but acting on those thoughts/desires is a sin. Most of us choose our own way and put things before God. All these things are sinful.

So your god made people gay and then decided they can never have a sexual or romantic relationship? Sounds fair.

@HmmGrey

The Bible is very clear on this topic. The scriptures don’t leave room for interpretation like previous posters have suggested. Neither is the Bible to be understood by one verse or book. People commonly refer to ceremonial laws (Leviticus) and question why Christians no longer follow them all. Jesus fulfilled the law so we now live under grace. The Bible isn’t carnal, it’s spiritual. The Lord is living and His word is a double edged sword. It equally blesses and convicts us, although mankind often rejects it, misreading it as condemnation. The Lord loves us, He doesn’t condemn. Homophobia is evil.

The Bible points to 19 sexual acts that are sinful, 17 heterosexual acts and then homosexuality and beastiality. Homosexuality receives a disproportionate about of attention, hate and scrutiny.

God created us man and woman. It’s the reason why only men and women can procreate. It’s His design. We live in a fallen world and we try to create our own design in many ways. We all sin and seek to be the ‘god’ of our own lives.

Jesus came to connect us back to the Father and restore the relationship we once had. Relationship with God is not religion. It’s often confused in the same way the Pharisees perverted the faith. Yes the Lord is love and we are encouraged to “love your neighbour as yourself”. That’s why it should be handled in love. Truly loving someone means being able to share the truth even it’s ‘controversial’ in today’s culture. As you said OP, God loves the sinner but hates the sin. It comes in between Him and His creation. Homosexuality is no greater than any other sin. The Lord wants us to know our identity in Christ and not assume an identity based on our sexual preference.

Same sex attraction isn’t sinful. God made beautiful beings but acting on those thoughts/desires is a sin. Most of us choose our own way and put things before God. All these things are sinful.

Your relatives response is sad and unfortunately not uncommon. It’s not a true depiction of God’s word or how a follower of Christ should react. Many Christians haven’t actually encountered God’s love through experience so often struggle to extend the same love and grace He shows us. None of us have the right to judge only the Lord. He gifted us His word and choice. We can choose to listen, follow him and receive the free gift of salvation. Or we can reject it and live our own way.

Thankfully most Christians in the UK don't seem to think like you anymore.

@HmmGrey what a load of bollocks

@HmmGrey what a load of bollocks

"The Bible is very clear on this topic"
It really isn't.....
The Leviticus passages for example - “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

As a gay woman reading that, it makes no sense to me. Of course I wouldn't lie with a man as I would with a woman.

'Ah, but that's not what it means'......

The Bible IS clear about a lot of things - Loving one another, social justice, how to treat people, God's grace.... but it's not clear about a whole lot of other things, including homosexuality.
Even the concept of 'Biblical marriage' (for straight people) isn't clear. Abraham committed adultery with his servant, Soloman had a load of concubines, David committed adultery, people routinely had sex before 'marriage' to check the woman was fertile and could produce heirs / more members of the Israelite nation. The scandal about Mary and Joseph was not that she was pregnant before they were married, it was that the father wasn't Joseph.

Not all straight people can procreate, and some choose not to - are their marriages less valid than others?

And because it's not clear on a lot of things, the Bible has been used to justify all sorts of things, and used as a weapon against various groups of people.

@HmmGrey

The Bible is very clear on this topic. The scriptures don’t leave room for interpretation like previous posters have suggested. Neither is the Bible to be understood by one verse or book. People commonly refer to ceremonial laws (Leviticus) and question why Christians no longer follow them all. Jesus fulfilled the law so we now live under grace. The Bible isn’t carnal, it’s spiritual. The Lord is living and His word is a double edged sword. It equally blesses and convicts us, although mankind often rejects it, misreading it as condemnation. The Lord loves us, He doesn’t condemn. Homophobia is evil.

The Bible points to 19 sexual acts that are sinful, 17 heterosexual acts and then homosexuality and beastiality. Homosexuality receives a disproportionate about of attention, hate and scrutiny.

God created us man and woman. It’s the reason why only men and women can procreate. It’s His design. We live in a fallen world and we try to create our own design in many ways. We all sin and seek to be the ‘god’ of our own lives.

Jesus came to connect us back to the Father and restore the relationship we once had. Relationship with God is not religion. It’s often confused in the same way the Pharisees perverted the faith. Yes the Lord is love and we are encouraged to “love your neighbour as yourself”. That’s why it should be handled in love. Truly loving someone means being able to share the truth even it’s ‘controversial’ in today’s culture. As you said OP, God loves the sinner but hates the sin. It comes in between Him and His creation. Homosexuality is no greater than any other sin. The Lord wants us to know our identity in Christ and not assume an identity based on our sexual preference.

Same sex attraction isn’t sinful. God made beautiful beings but acting on those thoughts/desires is a sin. Most of us choose our own way and put things before God. All these things are sinful.

Your relatives response is sad and unfortunately not uncommon. It’s not a true depiction of God’s word or how a follower of Christ should react. Many Christians haven’t actually encountered God’s love through experience so often struggle to extend the same love and grace He shows us. None of us have the right to judge only the Lord. He gifted us His word and choice. We can choose to listen, follow him and receive the free gift of salvation. Or we can reject it and live our own way.

What a lot of nonsense.

People who argue that “the Bible says” are generally NOT living the way the Bible says to. There’s a lot of contradictions in that book, and a lot of stuff that simply doesn’t hold up in modern life (mixed fabrics, no tattoos, etc etc).

I mean, you could also remind them that there’s a talking bloody donkey in there too.

I interpret -and so do some others- that when Jesus says 'There are some eunuchs born from their mothers womb' that that meant homosexual men. He then says that they don't need to receive the teaching that man and wife should marry and be one flesh. Obviously, this ignores lesbians and bisexual men and women, but it at least doesn't condemn gay men and doesn't say they can't have sexual relationships with each other.

@LaurieFairyCake

Methodist here (mainstream)

Our church has just voted to have same sex marriage (a huge deal)

There are no passages that trump "Love one another as I have loved you. And love your neighbour as yourself".

Jesus said the above ^^ - he never said one word against homosexuality

And the Bible is about Jesus (obviously ) - anything else is bollocks written by man

I think you’ll find that the Old Testament - ie half the bible, is not about Jesus.

@Soontobe60 but Christianity is!

@Catinabeanbag

‘Lie with’ refers to sexual relations. Same sex relations are different to heterosexual relations. If in doubt, it’s worth reviewing the scriptures in the original language. The whole Bible should be used to interpret the fullness of each verse.

Your comments about marriage and the failings of man raise a great conversation. At no point did God approve of the sinful ways of man. Man couldn’t uphold God’s law and proved that time and time again. The individuals sins had consequences and often lead to their own downfall. The word doesn’t shy away from exposing the ways man chose to live by his own desires, therefore outside of the will of God. God’s will is fulfilled regardless of our failings and His love and patience towards us incomparable. Our constant rebellion points to our need for Christ. He redeems us from the slavery to sin. We still make mistakes but there’s now grace.

One of our instructions was to populate the earth and that’s still necessary. Throughout the Bible many women had issues conceiving and as a result were treated terribly by the culture at the time. God often showed them kindness and mercy. Our main purpose is to know our creator and carry out his will. Not everyone will have children and that doesn’t invalidate them as individuals or within the sanctity of marriage. God has a purpose and plan for all our lives and no two are the same.

@LaurieFairyCake

The entirely of the Old Testament speaks about Jesus. He’s spoken of in the very first book of the Bible and all throughout. There are countless prophecies about His coming.

Our history is marked, revolutionised and transformed by Christ. (BC&AD) He is the fabric of creation.

[quote HmmGrey]@Catinabeanbag

‘Lie with’ refers to sexual relations. Same sex relations are different to heterosexual relations. If in doubt, it’s worth reviewing the scriptures in the original language. The whole Bible should be used to interpret the fullness of each verse.

Your comments about marriage and the failings of man raise a great conversation. At no point did God approve of the sinful ways of man. Man couldn’t uphold God’s law and proved that time and time again. The individuals sins had consequences and often lead to their own downfall. The word doesn’t shy away from exposing the ways man chose to live by his own desires, therefore outside of the will of God. God’s will is fulfilled regardless of our failings and His love and patience towards us incomparable. Our constant rebellion points to our need for Christ. He redeems us from the slavery to sin. We still make mistakes but there’s now grace.

One of our instructions was to populate the earth and that’s still necessary. Throughout the Bible many women had issues conceiving and as a result were treated terribly by the culture at the time. God often showed them kindness and mercy. Our main purpose is to know our creator and carry out his will. Not everyone will have children and that doesn’t invalidate them as individuals or within the sanctity of marriage. God has a purpose and plan for all our lives and no two are the same.[/quote]
What downfall does being gay lead to exactly?

[quote HmmGrey]@Catinabeanbag

‘Lie with’ refers to sexual relations. Same sex relations are different to heterosexual relations. If in doubt, it’s worth reviewing the scriptures in the original language. The whole Bible should be used to interpret the fullness of each verse.

Your comments about marriage and the failings of man raise a great conversation. At no point did God approve of the sinful ways of man. Man couldn’t uphold God’s law and proved that time and time again. The individuals sins had consequences and often lead to their own downfall. The word doesn’t shy away from exposing the ways man chose to live by his own desires, therefore outside of the will of God. God’s will is fulfilled regardless of our failings and His love and patience towards us incomparable. Our constant rebellion points to our need for Christ. He redeems us from the slavery to sin. We still make mistakes but there’s now grace.

One of our instructions was to populate the earth and that’s still necessary. Throughout the Bible many women had issues conceiving and as a result were treated terribly by the culture at the time. God often showed them kindness and mercy. Our main purpose is to know our creator and carry out his will. Not everyone will have children and that doesn’t invalidate them as individuals or within the sanctity of marriage. God has a purpose and plan for all our lives and no two are the same.[/quote]
God I’m glad I’m not a man

[quote HmmGrey]@Catinabeanbag

‘Lie with’ refers to sexual relations. Same sex relations are different to heterosexual relations. If in doubt, it’s worth reviewing the scriptures in the original language. The whole Bible should be used to interpret the fullness of each verse.

Your comments about marriage and the failings of man raise a great conversation. At no point did God approve of the sinful ways of man. Man couldn’t uphold God’s law and proved that time and time again. The individuals sins had consequences and often lead to their own downfall. The word doesn’t shy away from exposing the ways man chose to live by his own desires, therefore outside of the will of God. God’s will is fulfilled regardless of our failings and His love and patience towards us incomparable. Our constant rebellion points to our need for Christ. He redeems us from the slavery to sin. We still make mistakes but there’s now grace.

One of our instructions was to populate the earth and that’s still necessary. Throughout the Bible many women had issues conceiving and as a result were treated terribly by the culture at the time. God often showed them kindness and mercy. Our main purpose is to know our creator and carry out his will. Not everyone will have children and that doesn’t invalidate them as individuals or within the sanctity of marriage. God has a purpose and plan for all our lives and no two are the same.[/quote]
God I’m glad I’m not a man

Thank you all so much for your replies, a huge amount to get my head around

catinabeanbag you really know your stuff, thank you :) You said "A lot of churches (Church in Wales, CofE to a certain extent, Church in Scotland, Quakers, Methodists, for example) don't think being gay is a sin......" If churches are using the same holy book, why do they differ so much in their beliefs? Does it come down to interpretation, or a choice to ignore bits they think are irrelevant? I'm not sure which church my relative attends, I think it might be evangelical but i wouldn't put money on it

Also thanks HmmGrey for posting such a personal viewpoint

@beatrice14

I interpret -and so do some others- that when Jesus says 'There are some eunuchs born from their mothers womb' that that meant homosexual men. He then says that they don't need to receive the teaching that man and wife should marry and be one flesh. Obviously, this ignores lesbians and bisexual men and women, but it at least doesn't condemn gay men and doesn't say they can't have sexual relationships with each other.

I hadn't heard this, it's an interesting point

I mean, you could also remind them that there’s a talking bloody donkey in there too.

IS there?

@LaurieFairyCake

Methodist here (mainstream)

Our church has just voted to have same sex marriage (a huge deal)

There are no passages that trump "Love one another as I have loved you. And love your neighbour as yourself".

Jesus said the above ^^ - he never said one word against homosexuality

And the Bible is about Jesus (obviously ) - anything else is bollocks written by man

That's exactly what I believe, had quite an interesting (!) convo with our new Vicar who believes being gay and celibate is one of the higher acts of sacrifice and worship but being gay and having a sex life is sinful why others should have to sacrifice their right to a loving committed relationship whilst he does not sacrifice one of his several country properties to use the money to benefit those in need is beyond me.

Think I need to become a Methodist

@BobbieT1999

I'd be interested in the original meanings of the texts pre-translation. I keep coming across bits of Christian dogma that are only so because somebody chose to interpret the ancient Greek in a way that suited their own prejudices.

James I was a one for this, most notably about women AFAIK...The King James Bible has a lot of answer for re. the treatment of women in the centuries since (witch hunting included!).

I'm sure I came across something recently that said the text in the original (/older) language meant peadophilia but it was translated differently and I've got a really strong feeling it was translated into homophobic language instead...I could be mistaken, I didn't have a chance to look into it.

I'm not a Christian but had some basic c of e education growing up and what I learned from it was that jesus' message of love thy neighbour and let he who cast the first stone, etc, trumps all.

This really strikes a cord with me, and goes some way to explain why i've never 'got' religion, it's always felt to me very male-centric - something written up by men is bound to be skewed by & for their wants surely? And so much ill treatment of women stems from religious doctrine. I really struggle with that.

Also yes, re paedophilia - i'm sure i've heard that too, but can't remember where or when

Yes, same sex 'sexual relations' are different from opposite sex 'sexual relations', though I don't recall anywhere in the bible where it gets that specifc as to what 'sexual relations' are. I would imagine that's a more modern take on what it means.

My Greek and Hebrew are rusty (been a long time since my theology degree), but i recall that 'malakoi' and 'arsenokoitai' don't mean (in the Greek) what we think they now mean or have now been translated to mean, anyway.

I'd agree that it's still necessary to populate the earth - of course - but 90 ish % of people are straight, so there's no issue there really.

90 ish % of people are right handed, but I'm not sure we'd agree that God made the world to be right handed or that all left handed people are evil and sinning against nature, though that would have been the case 100 years ago.

I've plenty of sins that I need help with and God's grace for, but being gay and being in a relationship isn't one of them.

LefttoherownDevizes I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation :)

That's taking me down another contentious path - wealth in the church. I don't expect anyone to live in penury but i find it hard to accept how very comfortably the big wigs in some organised religions live, compared to their faith's followers. The only religion i've ever dabbled in was Quakerism, and that's the latent Quaker in me coming out i think.....I instinctively leaned towards the nontheist side though, hence my lack of bible knowledge

@airforsharon Yep, talking donkey. Numbers 22:28