Christianity & homophobia

[airforsharon]

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

@Catinabeanbag

Yes, same sex 'sexual relations' are different from opposite sex 'sexual relations', though I don't recall anywhere in the bible where it gets that specifc as to what 'sexual relations' are. I would imagine that's a more modern take on what it means.

My Greek and Hebrew are rusty (been a long time since my theology degree), but i recall that 'malakoi' and 'arsenokoitai' don't mean (in the Greek) what we think they now mean or have now been translated to mean, anyway.

I'd agree that it's still necessary to populate the earth - of course - but 90 ish % of people are straight, so there's no issue there really.

90 ish % of people are right handed, but I'm not sure we'd agree that God made the world to be right handed or that all left handed people are evil and sinning against nature, though that would have been the case 100 years ago.

I've plenty of sins that I need help with and God's grace for, but being gay and being in a relationship isn't one of them.

I'm left handed and grateful i wasn't 100 odd years ago, i know children were forced to use their right hand in school as using the left was 'unnatural' - something to do with the left being associated with the devil?

No wonder you're knowledgeable with a theology degree! The points that several people have made about translation and interpretation have got me thinking....if so much has been changed/misinterpreted/lost in translation over all the years how do we know what we can take as 'God's word' and a correct understanding? How can we trust we really know what God's plan is or was?

@kmblark

Sorry I missed your comment. Maybe my choice of wording was poor. God doesn’t give us desires for the same sex. He made beautiful beings both male and female. I personally can appreciate an attractive male and female. It’s my choice what I choose to do with those thoughts and feelings. The Lord gave us free will. We can choose to live according to His will or against it.

@ElectricDeChocoboIn

Voting against gay rights if that is what you believe or campaigning against something does not make someone homophobic - `I think it is very different if the comments are directed at an individual. People are allowed to have different views. I think there is a point that an opinion turns into a bigotry but holding a view and campaigning or voting in a way does not. The reason why I say this is that if we don't allow people freedom to have views then we are going down an avenue as a society where we are prescribing beliefs and opinions and whilst on this occasion we might say that is a desirable outcome we might find our own views compromised further on down the line. I firmly believe in freedom and that is why I feel that people are free to hold views and that the the "phobic " is used as a way of control which I think in the long run is not desirable for society

www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27

This talks about the meaning of the word arsenokotai

There was a great article I read many years ago by a priest's son (if I remember correctly) He went through the various "homophobic" bits of the Bible and countered them. As he had studied the Bible for years, it was really good as it had all the quotes that you could use. I'll try to find it

I think this was the man I was talking about, although I can't find the original article.

reformationproject.org/biblical-case/?fbclid=IwAR2Lv7dx01Qi2_SoQCz7O_QssmyqHD9xZnMvTiHdWj4wKycG_03ApRa7Skk

@airforsharon

The talking donkey is Balaam's (in Numbers 22). What gets me about that is that he doesn't seem remotely surprised his donkey starts talking to him..... just answers back as if it's the most normal thing.

As to churches opinions varying so much bearing in mind they all use the Bible, yes, it comes down to interpretations. There are those who thing the Bible is THE word of God - straight from God's mouth - 'God breathed', without error or contradiction, unchanging, and all aspects of it are relevant today - to quote the good book itself :
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

And so if the Bible says women musn't teach men, they won't allow women priests. If the Bible says women must submit to their husbands, that's what happens. If the Bible says you mustn't divorce - even in an abusive relationship, then you don't divorce. And so on.

Other churches / denominations take a different view and have allowed women vicars / priests, and realise that women can be equal to men in terms of roles, and that in some circumstances divorce might actually be the best thing for the family, etc.,

You can find websites / organisation / books etc to back up all of these viewpoints, and many of the issues have long been argued over, and probably will be for ages to come!

[quote twelly]@ElectricDeChocoboIn

Voting against gay rights if that is what you believe or campaigning against something does not make someone homophobic - `I think it is very different if the comments are directed at an individual. People are allowed to have different views. I think there is a point that an opinion turns into a bigotry but holding a view and campaigning or voting in a way does not. The reason why I say this is that if we don't allow people freedom to have views then we are going down an avenue as a society where we are prescribing beliefs and opinions and whilst on this occasion we might say that is a desirable outcome we might find our own views compromised further on down the line. I firmly believe in freedom and that is why I feel that people are free to hold views and that the the "phobic " is used as a way of control which I think in the long run is not desirable for society[/quote]
Of course campaigning and voting against gay rights makes you homophobic! It means you think gay and bisexual people don't deserve the same rights as straight people and are actively trying to take them away.

Athenajm80 thank you for the link, and if you can find the article that would be great

twelly you raise some interesting points there

Mumoblue I'm going to look that up now, thanks

Ionlydomassiveones i saw a side to him yesterday that really surprised me, i honestly thought better of him

[quote HmmGrey]@kmblark

Sorry I missed your comment. Maybe my choice of wording was poor. God doesn’t give us desires for the same sex. He made beautiful beings both male and female. I personally can appreciate an attractive male and female. It’s my choice what I choose to do with those thoughts and feelings. The Lord gave us free will. We can choose to live according to His will or against it.[/quote]
So where does same sex attraction come from then, if god made humans? And do you really think gay people should never be in a romantic or sexual relationship?

This is also an interesting article: www.westarinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Malakoi-Arsenokoitai-3.1.pdf

@HmmGrey - you say it's your choice what you do with those thoughts and feelings you have. I get that, but (and I'm making the assumption that you're straight), could you choose to have same-sex sexual relations?
Personally, I can appreciate a good looking chap, but have absolutely no desire to get into bed with him, and neither could I choose to either.

Tbh when i've had a bad day or little sleep a talking donkey wouldn't faze me either

COfE here and my church's stance is that it is written in the bible because in those days you needed to pass on property etc to heirs so they wrote that so people would produce offspring. My church is very pro inclusion and our last vicar was gay himself.

They also mention that the "marriage before sex" stance reflects the lack of contraception and to prevent single mothers beiing trapped in complete poverty but don't believe it applies now.

COfE here and my church's stance is that it is written in the bible because in those days you needed to pass on property etc to heirs so they wrote that so people would produce offspring. My church is very pro inclusion and our last vicar was gay himself.

They also mention that the "marriage before sex" stance reflects the lack of contraception and to prevent single mothers beiing trapped in complete poverty but don't believe it applies now.

@Catinabeanbag

Romans 1:26-27

We have many Bible translations because the original text is so meaty. I love the word but I’m no scholar. We never stop learning if we’re open to receiving.

The left or right handed analogy is yet another example of how evil finds it’s route through mankind to cause division. It’s all a distraction from the truth. Tragically, so many have taken the word and twisted it for financial gain, to control, to persecute etc

Jesus is Lord and Saviour and only He can tell you who you are and why He made you. I can share the revelation I have received but you can get to know him yourself and see what He has for you personally.

Blessings

@Catinabeanbag

Romans 1:26-27

We have many Bible translations because the original text is so meaty. I love the word but I’m no scholar. We never stop learning if we’re open to receiving.

The left or right handed analogy is yet another example of how evil finds it’s route through mankind to cause division. It’s all a distraction from the truth. Tragically, so many have taken the word and twisted it for financial gain, to control, to persecute etc

Jesus is Lord and Saviour and only He can tell you who you are and why He made you. I can share the revelation I have received but you can get to know him yourself and see what He has for you personally.

Blessings

I think a lot comes down to a mistranslation of the world ‘arsenkoitai’.

It’s a fairly rare word used in a couple of passages of the New Testament. It’s literal translation is ‘male bedders’ and it has traditionally been translated to mean homosexuals in various versions of the bible.

However, when this word pops up elsewhere, it is usually in relation to abuses of power. And because of this, it may actually relate more closely to the practice of older men sleeping with young boys (this was fairly common at the time, I think).

There’s also another term which more closely translates to spineless, but I can’t remember what it is…

@Buttons294749

COfE here and my church's stance is that it is written in the bible because in those days you needed to pass on property etc to heirs so they wrote that so people would produce offspring. My church is very pro inclusion and our last vicar was gay himself.

They also mention that the "marriage before sex" stance reflects the lack of contraception and to prevent single mothers beiing trapped in complete poverty but don't believe it applies now.

The CofE doesn't allow same sex couples to marry in their churches.

Sorry for repeating what PP have already said, I could only see the first couple of replies before posting .

@Catinabeanbag

Before coming to faith, I would’ve said I was bi-curious. I’ve kissed women.

God places His desires within our hearts when we’re in relationship with Him. While we live in the flesh (under slavery sin brings), our desires are often out of alignment with God’s will for our lives. The world encourages us to believe our mind is in control but the Bible tells us it’s our heart. Everything good or bad flows from our heart.

[quote HmmGrey]@Catinabeanbag

Romans 1:26-27

We have many Bible translations because the original text is so meaty. I love the word but I’m no scholar. We never stop learning if we’re open to receiving.

The left or right handed analogy is yet another example of how evil finds it’s route through mankind to cause division. It’s all a distraction from the truth. Tragically, so many have taken the word and twisted it for financial gain, to control, to persecute etc

Jesus is Lord and Saviour and only He can tell you who you are and why He made you. I can share the revelation I have received but you can get to know him yourself and see what He has for you personally.

Blessings[/quote]
I have no interest in your god and I do not consent to having your revelation shared with me thanks.

[quote HmmGrey]@Catinabeanbag

Before coming to faith, I would’ve said I was bi-curious. I’ve kissed women.

God places His desires within our hearts when we’re in relationship with Him. While we live in the flesh (under slavery sin brings), our desires are often out of alignment with God’s will for our lives. The world encourages us to believe our mind is in control but the Bible tells us it’s our heart. Everything good or bad flows from our heart.[/quote]
That’s nice dear. You do you. I’ll do everyone else.

OP, if you have Netflix give, 'Coming Out Colton' a watch - the coming out of American NFL player Colton Underwood. Don't mistake it for trash TV - it's actually a brilliant series. One episode deals directly with this. Underwood is a Baptist and has to negotiate his deep faith (and his Baptist friends & Pastor) on coming out to them. It's really interesting watching him navigate keeping a faith whilst negotiating organised religion.

Why, in the 21st century, would anyone with half a brain give a flying fuck what bigoted nonsense was written in some stupid ‘holy’ book thousands of years ago? It’s preposterous.

@kmblark

Everything outside of God’s design became a reality when we chose to rebel. In the garden of Eden, mankind decided God wasn’t trustworthy and chose to become the rulers of their own lives. We decide what we think is right or wrong all the time. We all have judgmental thoughts when the word says only God can judge His creation.

I think it’s something each person has to take before God. There’s so much only He can unpack and make sense of. We’re so much more than our bodies. Nobody knows us like He does.