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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
TwilightSkies · 08/11/2021 16:57

If there was nothing we needed to be saved from, Jesus would not have chosen to suffer and die a terrible death on the cross.

So we need to be saved from what God will do to us if we don’t let him save us? Ok….

speakout · 08/11/2021 17:05

MissingSummertime

We are led to believe god is omnipotent- why doesn't he just save everyone from going to hell?

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 17:06

Not by force.

Could you make yourself not believe in God? or believe in a different God?

@hyperbyke, no force involved. However, I do not wish to 'not believe in God or believe in another god', as you put it. The choice is mine.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 17:12

We are led to believe god is omnipotent- why doesn't he just save everyone from going to hell?

@speakout, because how could we have unity with the omnipotent God if we are powerless to choose it? For true unity there needs to be choice. How can we love if we have no free will? How can we act in harmony with no free will?

Sudokuzebra · 08/11/2021 17:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GrimDamnFanjo · 08/11/2021 17:47

Iirc Jews heaven and hell are not part of Judaism.

ksw0203 · 08/11/2021 17:53

@glimpsing @hyperbyke That was my experience too, I just didn't and couldn't believe in God. There wasn't really any hate in it, I just didn't. I can only describe when that changed as being like a flick was switched. I don't know helpful it is to tell people that they're actively choosing hell as I often think it isn't like that, although of course you're free to disagree with me.
@MissingSummertime Can I ask why it is that you believe that? Like you, if hell is really a place of eternal torture then I would choose death even for the worst person on earth not to experience that because I feel like this life is such a short time compared to that eternity and people go astray for all sorts of reasons. If you or I would do that then I can't understand why God who we're told is love itself wouldn't?
@DoesHePlayTheFiddle That's the way I hope it is, I've always found people's NDE stories really interesting

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glimpsing · 08/11/2021 18:06

[quote Sudokuzebra]@glimpsing, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you grew up in a nominallly Chrisuan country. Would you consider a devout Jew who had grown up in Israel , devout Muslim in. Pakistan or devout hindu or Sikh from india wasn't following his to the best of their ability ?[/quote]
No. I'd hope they could recognise the things that are of God as good, as they occur in their culture, though.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 18:20

@glimpsing @hyperbyke That was my experience too, I just didn't and couldn't believe in God. There wasn't really any hate in it, I just didn't. I can only describe when that changed as being like a flick was switched. I don't know helpful it is to tell people that they're actively choosing hell as I often think it isn't like that, although of course you're free to disagree with me.

Interesting. I don't think people necessarily do actively choose Hell, as a known concept. I think they can choose to align themselves with things which are of God or go against them, though. Even if the language is different. And this doesn't necessarily happen all at once.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 18:24

@ksw020, and I do believe in free will. Would it be helpful to tell people they have no choice over what they believe? Going on from there what lead to your 'switch' being flicked, as you put it?

ksw0203 · 08/11/2021 18:32

@glimpsing I believe in free will too, I just understand what it's like to feel completely incapable of believing in God. For me, I ended up praying the Lord's Prayer just as a rote thing in a difficult situation and the fear I was having just disappeared which got me thinking about things, on the way home I saw a statue of Mary and Jesus and just felt such an overwhelming sense of love that I decided that I'd much rather live with that than without it. I guess in that sense I did have agency over my choice not to ignore that feeling but I hadn't felt anything like that before so it was really those circumstances that made the change possible.

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glimpsing · 08/11/2021 18:35

[quote ksw0203]@glimpsing I believe in free will too, I just understand what it's like to feel completely incapable of believing in God. For me, I ended up praying the Lord's Prayer just as a rote thing in a difficult situation and the fear I was having just disappeared which got me thinking about things, on the way home I saw a statue of Mary and Jesus and just felt such an overwhelming sense of love that I decided that I'd much rather live with that than without it. I guess in that sense I did have agency over my choice not to ignore that feeling but I hadn't felt anything like that before so it was really those circumstances that made the change possible.[/quote]
I think that explains it beautifully. Much better than my attempts at explanation. And you did actively respond to what you were presented with.Smile

FTstepmum · 08/11/2021 19:11

@hyperbyke

The thought of people suffering for eternity is horrifying. I wouldn't even wish it on my abusive ex husband.

You think people end up in a "troubled place". Sounds like suffering to me.

Yes, it is a troubled place - and I definitely wouldn't want you or anyone else to experience it.

I think you are vocal on this topic because you are either:

a) Seeking God, even unconsciously

or

b) Spoiling for a fight

If it's the first, I would genuinely encourage you to ask God - openly and honestly. He wants to hear from you and he hears your heart's cry. Even if you don't believe in him. Just ask. There's nothing to lose by doing it.

If it's the second, I'd probably leave it because you're not going to change the mind of a genuine believer who knows Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. There's no going back (in a good way, mind!)

I've been praying for you and will continue to lift you to the loving, living Lord. X

3WildOnes · 08/11/2021 19:28

I am a regular church going Christian and I don’t believe in an eternal hell- I do believe in universal salvation. Google Christian Universalism, there are a few Facebook groups too where people would be happy to answer your questions. I think my minister believes in universal salvation too.

Sudokuzebra · 08/11/2021 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FTstepmum · 08/11/2021 19:45

@3WildOnes

I am a regular church going Christian and I don’t believe in an eternal hell- I do believe in universal salvation. Google Christian Universalism, there are a few Facebook groups too where people would be happy to answer your questions. I think my minister believes in universal salvation too.
Why was Jesus flogged and crucified, if everyone is saved?

I definitely believe Jesus died for everyone. But the Gospels make it clear - only for those people who believe in him and their need for his redemption. Otherwise his death was a horrific mistake.

Genuinely curious: where do you get this teaching/belief from? Is it a unitarian church?

ImustLearn2Cook · 08/11/2021 19:46

@ksw0203 I hope this helps. The full article is quite long, so I only copy and pasted about half of it.

What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell

time.com/5822598/jesus-really-said-heaven-hell/?amp=true

The fear is as ancient as civilization’s oldest surviving records. The hero of the Epic of Gilgamesh writhes in agony at the prospect of spending eternity groveling in dust being eaten by worms. Few people today may share Gilgamesh’s terror of consciously living forever in the dirt. Plenty, however, tremble before the possibility of eternal misery. Possibly this is a good time to help people realize that it simply will not be that way.
There are over two billion Christians in the world, the vast majority of whom believe in heaven and hell. You die and your soul goes either to everlasting bliss or torment (or purgatory en route). This is true even in the land of increasing “nones”: Americans continue to anticipate a version of the alternatives portrayed in The Good Place: regardless of religious persuasion, 72% believe in a literal heaven, 58% in a literal hell.

The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.

Unlike most Greeks, ancient Jews traditionally did not believe the soul could exist at all apart from the body. On the contrary, for them, the soul was more like the “breath.” The first human God created, Adam, began as a lump of clay; then God “breathed” life into him (Genesis 2: 7). Adam remained alive until he stopped breathing. Then it was dust to dust, ashes to ashes.
Ancient Jews thought that was true of us all. When we stop breathing, our breath doesn’t go anywhere. It just stops. So too the “soul” doesn’t continue on outside the body, subject to postmortem pleasure or pain. It doesn’t exist any longer.

The Hebrew Bible itself assumes that the dead are simply dead—that their body lies in the grave, and there is no consciousness, ever again. It is true that some poetic authors, for example in the Psalms, use the mysterious term “Sheol” to describe a person’s new location. But in most instances Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes.

And so, traditional Israelites did not believe in life after death, only death after death. That is what made death so mournful: nothing could make an afterlife existence sweet, since there was no life at all, and thus no family, friends, conversations, food, drink – no communion even with God. God would forget the person and the person could not even worship. The most one could hope for was a good and particularly long life here and now.

But Jews began to change their view over time, although it too never involved imagining a heaven or hell. About two hundred years before Jesus, Jewish thinkers began to believe that there had to be something beyond death—a kind of justice to come. Jews had long believed that God was lord of the entire world and all people, both the living and the dead. But the problems with that thinking were palpable: God’s own people Israel continually, painfully, and frustratingly suffered, from natural disaster, political crises, and, most notably, military defeat. If God loves his people and is sovereign over all the world why do his people experience so much tragedy?

Some thinkers came up with a solution that explained how God would bring about justice, but again one that didn’t involve perpetual bliss in a heaven above or perpetual torment in a hell below. This new idea maintained that there are evil forces in the world aligned against God and determined to afflict his people. Even though God is the ultimate ruler over all, he has temporarily relinquished control of this world for some mysterious reason. But the forces of evil have little time left. God is soon to intervene in earthly affairs to destroy everything and everyone that opposes him and to bring in a new realm for his true followers, a Kingdom of God, a paradise on earth. Most important, this new earthly kingdom will come not only to those alive at the time, but also to those who have died. Indeed, God will breathe life back into the dead, restoring them to an earthly existence. And God will bring all the dead back to life, not just the righteous. The multitude who had been opposed to God will also be raised, but for a different reason: to see the errors of their ways and be judged. Once they are shocked and filled with regret – but too late — they will permanently be wiped out of existence.

This view of the coming resurrection dominated the view of Jewish thought in the days of Jesus. It was also the view he himself embraced and proclaimed. The end of time is coming soon. The earthly Kingdom of God is “at hand” (Mark 1:15). God will soon destroy everything and everyone opposed to him and establish a new order on earth. Those who enter this kingdom will enjoy a utopian existence for all time. All others will be annihilated.

But Jesus put his own twist on the idea. Contrary to what other Jewish leaders taught, Jesus preached that no one will inherit the glorious future kingdom by stringently observing all the Jewish laws in their most intimate details; or by meticulously following the rules of worship involving sacrifice, prayer, and observance of holy days; or by pursuing one’s own purity through escaping the vile world and the tainting influence of sinful others. Instead, for Jesus, the earthly utopia will come to those who are fully dedicated to the most pervasive and dominant teachings of God’s law. Put most simply, that involves loving God above all things despite personal hardship, and working diligently for the welfare of others, even when it is exceedingly difficult. People who have not been living lives of complete unselfish love need to repent and return to the two “greatest commandments” of Jewish Scripture: deep love of God (Deuteronomy 6:4-6) and committed love of neighbor (Leviticus 19:18)

52andblue · 08/11/2021 19:52

@ShoesEverywhere

I've always liked how Archbishop Rowan Williams talks about hell

‘My concept of hell, I suppose, is being stuck with myself for ever and with no way out. Whether anybody ever gets to that point I have no idea. But that it’s possible to be stuck with my selfish little ego for all eternity, that’s what I would regard as hell’.

Thanks for posting that @ShoesEverywhere I've not heard this before and it really resonates with me!
ksw0203 · 08/11/2021 20:17

@ImustLearn2Cook Thank you, I'll read the rest tonight but it sounds like an interesting read so far

@Sudokuzebra I think my minister believes similar, I'll try to catch him on Sunday to ask him about it.

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ImustLearn2Cook · 08/11/2021 20:46

@ksw0203 Smile It helped me. I had a fear of hell that caused me a great deal of anxiety. I worried that I didn’t have enough faith, I worried anytime I had doubts or questioned religion or God that I would end up in hell. It’s no way to live. I personally left religion behind (many years ago) and settled on a belief that if God knew absolutely everything and was perfect and omnipresent then he would understand. But even so, I still had this fear of ending up in hell. Then I read this article and that fear has gone.

For me, a fear of eternal punishment in hell or a desire to avoid ending up in hell is not a good reason to love God or believe in God or practice religion.

3WildOnes · 08/11/2021 22:22

@FTstepmum if you are genuinely curious just google Christian Universalism. Join some of the Facebook groups. Read some of the books written on it. Not Unitarian- we are much more happy clappy! CofE church but my previous church (house move) was a baptist church. I just seek out churches with similar beliefs to my own.

3WildOnes · 09/11/2021 09:47

I’d recommend reading The Lost Message of Paul by Steve Chalke.

hyperbyke · 09/11/2021 10:19

Interesting. I don't think people necessarily do actively choose Hell, as a known concept. I think they can choose to align themselves with things which are of God or go against them, though. Even if the language is different. And this doesn't necessarily happen all at once

What exactly are things that are for and against God? Who decides?

glimpsing · 09/11/2021 10:35

What exactly are things that are for and against God? Who decides

God decides. And as for the things which are for God, they are essentially love. You get to know the fine detail the more you get to know and experience God.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16
.....God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

hyperbyke · 09/11/2021 10:49

@glimpsing

What exactly are things that are for and against God? Who decides

God decides. And as for the things which are for God, they are essentially love. You get to know the fine detail the more you get to know and experience God.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16
.....God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Plenty of non-christians love people though.
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