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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
hyperbyke · 09/11/2021 13:45

[quote glimpsing]**@hyperbyke

Pray to something I don't believe in?

Even if I did, he seems to give everyone different answers.

There is a hope for church unity within Christianity. It's something that has to be trusted in, taken in good faith as individuals progress in their understanding.

Ephesians 4:12-14
"12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

[/quote]
It doesn't seem closer than it has for the past couple of thousand years. And there's difference of opinions between individuals even within the same denominations.

And if there was unification, which interpretation would everyone follow? Yours?

glimpsing · 09/11/2021 13:47

Perhaps if your god was a little clearer in his dogma there would be no confusion.

What can I say?....fully understanding omnipotence takes time and dedication.🤷‍♀️

glimpsing · 09/11/2021 13:48

And if there was unification, which interpretation would everyone follow? Yours

Only if it were completely right....in truth I have to be prepared to let go of some of my wilder ideas as much as anyone else is.Wink

Auger · 09/11/2021 18:07

I recommend reading Karen Armstrong's The Bible: A Biography. It helped me as I come from a background in the Evangelical & Pentecostal traditions, and I knew God as I directly experience did not correlate with every word thought up, written down & collated into canon by men a few thousand years ago.
The other things : researching NDE's and spiritual experiences from across the world shows that people see spiritual figures from their own culture, and have positive & negative experiences that directly relate to their own theology & not things universally accepted. There are accounts of spiritual awakenings in many traditions that mirror the Christian version. I don't think God is as hung up on any interpretation of religion as much as humans are, as the foundation remains as love & the fruits of the Spirit. Oswald Chambers said that our love of God has to be bigger than our love of doctrine, and even 'the biggies' should be challenged. The 'fear of the Lord' may be 'the beginning of wisdom', but 'perfect love casts out all fear' and that is the middle & end of wisdom - where there is no more fear, only perfect acceptance. I may be wrong, but I'd rather live a life in love & security in that, rather than one in judgement & fear. Then if there is nothing else to come then I will still have lived a life worth living. Or something like that !

ksw0203 · 09/11/2021 18:36

@WarmWinterSun Thank you for the advice. I do read my Bible often but I acknowledge that I am probably falling short in the 'studying' part as I'm a little intimidated by the sheer number of things that are said on one particular topic and don't really know where to start! My church will be running a bible study group in the new year though which should hopefully help.

OP posts:
ksw0203 · 09/11/2021 18:40

Also, thanks to the people who have given book recommendations, I'll have a look at them.

OP posts:
ShoppingWomble · 09/11/2021 20:25

One more book recommendation, OP!

Love Wins by Rob Bell:

www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Wins-Heart-Lifes-Questions/dp/000746505X?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

From the back cover:

Here’s how the traditional story goes...

‘God loves us. God offers us everlasting life by grace, freely, through no merit on our part. Unless you do not respond the right way. Then God will torture you forever. In hell.’

What?

Acclaimed author, pastor and teacher Rob Bell presents a richer, grander, truer, and more spiritually satisfying way of understanding heaven, hell, God, Jesus, salvation, and repentance. The result is the discovery that the ‘good news’ is much, much better than we ever imagined.

It's a while since I read it but remember it made a lot of sense and was more loving (and more logical) than the burn-in-hell-forever stuff (which he proves isn't actually from the Bible or what Jesus taught).

ksw0203 · 09/11/2021 20:41

Thank you @ShoppingWomble Smile

OP posts:
ShoppingWomble · 09/11/2021 20:43
Smile

Also made me want to reread it now!

godwingolly · 11/11/2021 09:53

the atheists’ bleak view of death as the end of everything

I'm an atheist. Yes, it's the end of my life (well, you might think I'm destined for hell), but my memory for my offspring and cellular presence will continue. Also, believing this is my one shot at this allowed me to take a massive brave step that has been really important for me to do. So it's not bleak at all.

Madhairday · 11/11/2021 17:56

Sorry I'm late to the discussion - really interesting to read. I rejected the idea of hell as eternal conscious torment a few years ago now and it was so liberating. I'd never been able to reconcile the God of love I know with the idea of billions suffering in fire for eternity. I started to study the area and was fascinated to discover that the eternal torment view of hell is really not biblical, it's been twisted over centuries and used as coercion to oppress people, especially in the middle ages. Just horrific. I found this website really helped me think through all the Bible passages that are always quoted. It makes so much sense to me that hell is not eternal, but that there is still justice in the sense of God knowing the heart of people - and, with so much evil in the world, we need some justice for all the atrocities over centuries. But the idea of hell we've adopted isn't what Jesus, or Paul was talking about.

I think something called conditionalism more fits the text - I'm unconvinced about universalism. What I do think is that everyone is offered the chance to be with God in eternity, but God does not force him/herself on people, so universalism can't quite work in the context of free will.

rethinkinghell.com/explore/

MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 18:47

The plain reading of the bible is absolutely clear. Hell is real and is eternal. Read the New Testament and read what Jesus said - he did not die for nothing! He died and rose again to save us from hell which is eternal separation from God.

Hell is real people. You would not spend one single second there before you changed your mind.

I previously copied a link to the personal testimony of Howard Storm who was an ATHEIST professor before his death and encounter in hell.

Here is another: 23 Seconds in Hell:
www.amazon.co.uk/23-MINUTES-HELL-WIESE-BILL/dp/1591858828/ref=nodl_?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Jesus’s words are warnings - he doesn’t want anyone to wind up in hell. These testimonies are warnings. Jesus is the only way- He is the door to eternal life

Madhairday · 11/11/2021 19:35

Hi @MissingSummertime. I think the NT can be read in a very different and liberating way (see link above.) Jesus never talked about hell as eternal - some hermeneutics are vital in interpreting the text, and knowledge of what the Greek words meant - Gehenna, Sheol, Hades - none of these referred to a place of eternal suffering. There's argument for a place of punishment ie gehenna (a place of fire) and argument for a permanent non existence. I really find it difficult to reconcile the love and mercy of God with what hell has been built up to be over years, usually as an instrument of oppression over weaker people. Do have a look at that site - it goes through all the passages that refer to hell, or Hades, or Sheol (which are different.)

MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 20:06

Madhairday - are you a Christian?

Glassofshloer · 11/11/2021 20:13

My mum told me as a child that hell was like being inside an oven and just as you think the temperature can’t get any higher, they turn it up again. And again. Forever.

I was raised Catholic, and really struggle with it if I’m honest. I’m seriously considering counselling to free myself from the feelings of guilt and shame in everything I think and do.

mordinvasnormandy · 11/11/2021 20:17

@Madhairday

Hi *@MissingSummertime*. I think the NT can be read in a very different and liberating way (see link above.) Jesus never talked about hell as eternal - some hermeneutics are vital in interpreting the text, and knowledge of what the Greek words meant - Gehenna, Sheol, Hades - none of these referred to a place of eternal suffering. There's argument for a place of punishment ie gehenna (a place of fire) and argument for a permanent non existence. I really find it difficult to reconcile the love and mercy of God with what hell has been built up to be over years, usually as an instrument of oppression over weaker people. Do have a look at that site - it goes through all the passages that refer to hell, or Hades, or Sheol (which are different.)
Even in text, your glee in the idea of people going to hell really comes across.
MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 20:40

Hi mordinvasnormandy, sorry can I just check are you referencing me?

Madhairday · 11/11/2021 22:26

@mordinvasnormandy I'm not sure what you mean, as I'm arguing against the traditional idea of hell! My glee is being liberated from a medieval construct, and I don't actually believe in eternal torment, so you may have referenced the wrong person? Confused

@MissingSummertime most definitely, with all my heart.

MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 22:26

The Judgment of the Dead

Revelation 20: 11 -15:

“11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

nildesparandum · 11/11/2021 22:33

To me, hell is what we are going through now on earth.

Sudokuzebra · 11/11/2021 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 22:50

2Thessalonians 1:9 - “They will be punished with everlasting* destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”

Can there honestly be another interpretation for the word ‘Everlasting?’

The plain reading of the text is conclusive. In the bible God refers to His everlasting covenant with his people Israel which is then extended in the New Testament under the new covenant, for all who would receive Jesus as Lord. This covenant is an everlasting eternal covenant. The same applies for where people will spend eternity.

As much as you want to suggest to people that hell isn’t real, or is just temporary, or nothing to worry about, (or a fun party place where you can enjoy sinful vices and stuff which I’ve also heard) it just is not true. The greatest Christian teachers of our time all agree and I am very happy to reference some of them here if that would help dispel the lie that hell is not real or just temporary.

That is a very dangerous doctrine you’re suggesting Madhairday, you are misdirecting people away from Christ and His gospel message of salvation. Why do we need saving if there is nothing to save us from? Please tell me what was the purpose of Jesus’s sacrificial life, death and resurrection, if there is nothing we need saving from? What is the point of the gospels at all in this case? Thank you but I don’t need to read a site, the plain reading of bible scripture is clear as day

mordinvasnormandy · 11/11/2021 22:55

[quote Madhairday]@mordinvasnormandy I'm not sure what you mean, as I'm arguing against the traditional idea of hell! My glee is being liberated from a medieval construct, and I don't actually believe in eternal torment, so you may have referenced the wrong person? Confused

@MissingSummertime most definitely, with all my heart.[/quote]
Sorry, I meant to quote @MissingSummertime and their smug tone.

mordinvasnormandy · 11/11/2021 22:57

@MissingSummertime

2Thessalonians 1:9 - “They will be punished with everlasting* destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”

Can there honestly be another interpretation for the word ‘Everlasting?’

The plain reading of the text is conclusive. In the bible God refers to His everlasting covenant with his people Israel which is then extended in the New Testament under the new covenant, for all who would receive Jesus as Lord. This covenant is an everlasting eternal covenant. The same applies for where people will spend eternity.

As much as you want to suggest to people that hell isn’t real, or is just temporary, or nothing to worry about, (or a fun party place where you can enjoy sinful vices and stuff which I’ve also heard) it just is not true. The greatest Christian teachers of our time all agree and I am very happy to reference some of them here if that would help dispel the lie that hell is not real or just temporary.

That is a very dangerous doctrine you’re suggesting Madhairday, you are misdirecting people away from Christ and His gospel message of salvation. Why do we need saving if there is nothing to save us from? Please tell me what was the purpose of Jesus’s sacrificial life, death and resurrection, if there is nothing we need saving from? What is the point of the gospels at all in this case? Thank you but I don’t need to read a site, the plain reading of bible scripture is clear as day

You seem much more dangerous to me. Anyone who thinks people deserve to suffer for not sharing their beliefs is someone to be wary of.
MissingSummertime · 11/11/2021 23:44

[quote Sudokuzebra]@MissingSummertime, what would happen to people who had never herd of Jesus ? Would they be saved or condemned to hell.[/quote]
Hi, so although this topic is about hell ( and I am passionate about dispelling the myth that it doesn’t exist or that the bible describes it as anything but the terrible place it is) the thing I want to get across more is that Jesus gave up absolutely everything for us, he left his perfect throne room in heaven to be born as one of us, he healed, delivered , worked the miraculous in his ministry even raising the dead, and was tempted in every way we are but yet was without sin. When Jesus gave His life on the cross he did this for us, to pay for our sins ( the things we’ve done wrong) so we might be saved and have a rightful restored relationship with God. Jesus died once, for all. There was a divine exchange on the cross - all of our unholiness for Jesus’s perfect holiness, our unrighteousness for His righteousness, our death for his eternal life ( as to die in sin is to be as one who walked the ‘broad highway’ that Jesus describes, which is the wide road that leads to hell) though He is the King of heaven he became poor. Jesus is absolutely just, and he will judge justly anyone who did not have the chance to hear and respond to the gospel. (Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate.(A) For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.“)

Second Peter 3:9 reads, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” God desires that everyone come to Him via Christ, but not all will. We, however, do not have access to a list of who will respond to God and who will not. As such, biblical Christianity places a great deal of emphasis on Christians sharing the gospel.

Romans 10:13-15 underscores the significance of Christian evangelism when it comes to reaching those who have never heard: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

In other words, Christians are actively spreading the message of Jesus so that “those who have never heard” will indeed get an opportunity to hear.

The Bible, for instance, records just such a story about a man named Cornelius. This man knew about God, but not about Christ. Because of his sincere desire to know God, Cornelius came in direct contact with the Apostle Peter who told Cornelius about Jesus (see Acts 10 for the whole story).

Today is the acceptable day of salvation. Every time I drive my DD to school we pass a tree covered in bunches of flowers that have been tied to it where a tragic accident ended someone’s life suddenly 2 weeks ago. None of us know how long we have on this planet. We will all meet Jesus face to face one day and tomorrow might be that day. He will either meet us in a father’s embrace as saving Lord, or as Righteous Judge.

“In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2