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Philosophy/religion

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Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:13

For you @speakout, a song which you might find more beautiful. I love wolves too.Smile

THE WOLF SONG Lyrics – Nordic Lullaby
Lyrics in Swedish + English translation
Vargen ylar i nattens skog
(The wolf is howling in the forest of the night)
Han vill men kan inte sova
(He wants to, but cannot sleep)
Hungern river i hans varga buk
(The hunger is scratching his wolfen stomach)
Och det är kallt i hans stova
(And it’s cold in his burrow)
Du varg du varg, kom inte hit
(Wolf, wolf, don’t you come here)
Ungen min får du aldrig
( I will never let you take my child)
Vargen ylar i nattens skog
(The wolf is howling in the forest of the night)
Ylar av hunger o klagar
(Howling out of hunger and moaning)
Men jag ska ge’n en grisa svans
(But I will give him a pig tail)
Sånt passar i varga magar
(That’s what the wolfen stomach needs)
Du varg du varg, kom inte hit
(Wolf, wolf, don’t you come here)
Ungen min får du aldrig
( I will never let you take my child)
…(First verse again)

TheCheesyBakedBean · 16/11/2021 08:15

My God is love too. Love would not punish people eternally. Love would forgive all. Any theistic question I have I just switch the word God with love, and if it is not love it is not the God I know. IMO their are a lot of wonderful ideas and stories captured in religious texts, but there is also a lot of other stuff in there. It's like panning for Gold, I keep the treasure and let the rest fall away, back into the history books where some of it belongs.

speakout · 16/11/2021 08:22

I know that song too glimpsing- and I don't like that one either.

You say However the church (body of Christ - i.e. other Christians around them) should point out what is wrong and harmful- like sex outside marriage or homosexuality? Do those "wrongdoings" need pointed out?

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:27

I know that song too glimpsing- and I don't like that one either.

What do you like?

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:28

like sex outside marriage or homosexuality? Do those "wrongdoings" need pointed out?

Well, I'm guilty of one of those things, myself.🤷‍♀️ but I believe in love.Smile

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 08:30

It does stretch me. And it was churches under scrutiny not individuals.

Churches are made up of individuals. When a Church does something it is individuals making that decision. Individual Christians.

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:39

Churches are made up of individuals. When a Church does something it is individuals making that decision. Individual Christians.

Wow! Don't ever align yourself with an organisation (or support one) where one individual does something bad, then! You'd never live with yourself!Shock

But it seems if I point out something that is clearly wrong with a church, I'm to be criticised in your eyes. If I don't, I'm to be criticised. Yes, I know I'm far from perfect, thankfully I can go to Jesus for help.

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 08:47

@glimpsing

Churches are made up of individuals. When a Church does something it is individuals making that decision. Individual Christians.

Wow! Don't ever align yourself with an organisation (or support one) where one individual does something bad, then! You'd never live with yourself!Shock

But it seems if I point out something that is clearly wrong with a church, I'm to be criticised in your eyes. If I don't, I'm to be criticised. Yes, I know I'm far from perfect, thankfully I can go to Jesus for help.

I'm not criticising you for pointing out something wrong with a Church, I'm criticising you for saying they're not really religious.

And where did I say that people are responsible for things other individuals in their organisation do? You seem to be repeatedly putting words in my mouth.

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:53

I'm not criticising you for pointing out something wrong with a Church, I'm criticising you for saying they're not really religious.

I didn't say they weren't really religious, I, if recall correctly. I said that wasn't a church I identified with.

And where did I say that people are responsible for things other individuals in their organisation do? You seem to be repeatedly putting words in my mouth.

Do I? Sorry, I know how that feels. Perhaps if we try to act in love instead of accusing each other, we'd fare better?

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 08:55

I didn't say they weren't really religious, I, if recall correctly. I said that wasn't a church I identified with.

You said they were false religion.

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 08:58

You said they were false religion

I did. Perhaps I should have said a false picture of religion in that it's from a biased perspective. It ignores all the good done from within the Christian Faith.

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 09:13

@glimpsing

You said they were false religion

I did. Perhaps I should have said a false picture of religion in that it's from a biased perspective. It ignores all the good done from within the Christian Faith.

But that's the thing. Those peoples religion, or interpretation or whatever you want to call it, is no less biased or less valid that yours. They read they Bible and see justification for homophobia and misogyny. You might think they're wrong but they think the same about you. And I'm not just talking about obscure little sects or people from 500 years ago.
MissingSummertime · 16/11/2021 09:30

speak out, depremensil, clearly you have made up your mind about who God is. You will have to walk that walk.

But it is sad for us because it does not resemble the God we love and serve. The one who loves us so much so died a dire death on the cross in order to wipe our slate clean and restore a relationship with us, because he loves us and is our father.

Yes God is just, he is justice. He is the reason we have a hard wired sense of justice. He judges sin because he is Holy. I recently heard it said and rang so true that God is first and foremost father, not judge.

Being a father is not a consequence of being a judge, but being a judge is a consequence of being a father.

If we love our children, it has to be part of our role as parent. For those of us that are parents, we should understand that a consequence of being a parent is to set boundaries for acceptable behaviour, what is good and bad

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 09:45

speak out, depremensil, clearly you have made up your mind about who God is. You will have to walk that walk.

But I don't believe in God. So it's not anything to me.

speakout · 16/11/2021 10:36

MissingSummertime

How can a third party atone for my wrongdoings?

speakout · 16/11/2021 10:37

And my wrongdoings apparently include even being born!

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 10:47

@speakout

And my wrongdoings apparently include even being born!
I think, this makes sense when you link it with the idea many have concerning free will. How much what be believe and in turn do is voluntary and how much is simply a product of nature and nurture. As I said in my post earlier,

As I believe, beliefs or lack of them affect society.

Say, for example you did believe, beliefs are involuntary - a product of a combination of genetic inheritance and socialisation. Then there would be little room for hope over the outcomes for someone born in a deeply dysfunctional family to parents who had inheritable health conditions. People perhaps would be tempted to extrapolate the risks (and believe their extrapolations) over what could be expected of people with certain backgrounds and family history of certain conditions. What about growing up in dysfunctional societies or communities? Growing up amongst communities or in countries with different values to our own? Look at the ever widening understanding of what is inherited through genetics - mental health conditions, obesity, cancer,....the list is forever lengthening. This type of thinking creates prejudice.

If you believe we are more than a product of nature and nurture - what is the additional element? Could it be something spiritual? Something which is not a physical phenomenon in itself but affects the physical world as belief does.

Now, unless you believe you are perfect there will be some things about yourself that you would like to improve. Does your background and genetic inheritance impede you at all in this? You clearly see faults with some close family of your's (as you mentioned them upthread) and I expect they have hurt you due to these faults, at least at some point in the past. How able are you to recover? What is it in you that gives you the power to recover from injury and frailties? What is it in you that allows you not to inherit their faults?

speakout · 16/11/2021 11:03

glimpsing

I don't view myself as being "perfect" or "imperfect".

A very christian perspective- and neatly leads on to the idea that we are all sinners- again I reject that judgement.

Imagine a herd of elephants at a watering hole- big, small, young, old- would you cast an eye over and say " Look at all those elephants- not one of them is perfect- all flawed in some way"

I am guessing not- and I view human animals in the same way.
We all have vagaries of behaviour, share motivations- that doesn't make us perfect or imperfect - is simply means we are sapien.

I am pefectly good at being human thanks!!

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 11:13

Ah, I know that view, @speakout. I agree, right and wrong, from a human perspective is not clear cut and varies according to context, culture etc etc. So, no, I don't look at things and judge, judge, judge. I appreciate how right and wrong can look different according to context, culture, my own biases etc etc.

However, whilst I appreciate what is right can look different from different perspectives and varies with context, I submit to God because (according to my Faith) He is omnipotent - He knows what is right and best from the highest perspective, by definition. So I engage with this, through my own spiritual practice.

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 11:17

And if, I lovingly, am genuinely worried about someone harming themselves or others, I would act in love and do all I could do to stop them.

And what is more I would encourage people doing what I see as good. Simple as that. Smile🤷‍♀️

speakout · 16/11/2021 11:32

And if, I lovingly, am genuinely worried about someone harming themselves or others, I would act in love and do all I could do to stop them.

No more than any human would do though.

And what is more I would encourage people doing what I see as good.
That's a sticky one though- doe that include sexual practices? being involved in spiritual practices you may see as dangerous?

My sister would see practicing yoga or using Tarot cards as "dangerous".

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 11:57

That's a sticky one though- doe that include sexual practices? being involved in spiritual practices you may see as dangerous?

If I think something is harmful and dangerous I would warn people against it. Who wouldn't?

My sister would see practicing yoga or using Tarot cards as "dangerous

Well, I stretch and pray. I don't use the divination tool Tarot, although I do sometimes interpret and reflect upon the symbology in my own dreams and real life. As a divination tool, what is Tarot engaging with?

depremesnil · 16/11/2021 12:03

If I think something is harmful and dangerous I would warn people against it. Who wouldn't?

Yeah I've had family and acquaintances who had that attitude towards my sexuality. It's annoying at best.

speakout · 16/11/2021 12:04

If I think something is harmful and dangerous I would warn people against it. Who wouldn't?

But that is subjective.

glimpsing · 16/11/2021 12:09

But that is subjective

It is my hope, I am acting in Gods will which is not subjective. But I am certainly not perfect, so it could be. 🤷‍♀️

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