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Original poster

Struggling with Hell

371 replies

ksw0203 · 04/11/2021 15:17

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

OP posts:
Serenschintte · 07/11/2021 21:58

Read about Our Lady of Fatima. It was an apparition in between the world wars in Portugal. There was also a miracle of the sun - seen by many 1000s of people at the same time.
There is a description of Hell from the child seers. They were shown hell during one of the apparitions.

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 10:02

The thought of people suffering for eternity is horrifying. I wouldn't even wish it on my abusive ex husband.

You think people end up in a "troubled place". Sounds like suffering to me.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 13:26

@hyperbyke
Unfortunately, when people do wrong and act on motivations that are less than loving there is suffering as a result. Heaven is a place of unity, love and harmony. Hatred does not belong there.

Free will involves having the power to make the choice between love and hatred, good and evil. Without having free will, the experience of power, how could we have unity with an omnipotent being? If someone holds onto aspects of their personalities borne out of hate how can they expect to have unity with God in love and harmony?

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 13:38

[quote glimpsing]**@hyperbyke
Unfortunately, when people do wrong and act on motivations that are less than loving there is suffering as a result. Heaven is a place of unity, love and harmony. Hatred does not belong there.

Free will involves having the power to make the choice between love and hatred, good and evil. Without having free will, the experience of power, how could we have unity with an omnipotent being? If someone holds onto aspects of their personalities borne out of hate how can they expect to have unity with God in love and harmony?

[/quote]
Not believing in god, or the christian god in particular, is not wrong though, or borne of hate.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 13:56

Not believing in god, or the christian god in particular, is not wrong though, or borne of hate.

Well, I wouldn't fully know since my experience is of actively believing in God as a Christian. I assume you are atheist, @hyperbyke, so you would be able to say what your rejection of Christ what He stands for is borne of.

Usually, though, during conversations, atheists describe a god which I do not recognise or believe in, one which I do not associate with the God I believe in. They effectively build a straw man and accusing me of worshipping it, when I do not. Those type of conversations don't get very far.

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 14:06

Well, I wouldn't fully know since my experience is of actively believing in God as a Christian. I assume you are atheist, @hyperbyke, so you would be able to say what your rejection of Christ what He stands for is borne of.

it's certainly not hate. I've done plenty of things in my life I'm not proud of, as has everyone, but nothing to warrant eternal suffering.

Usually, though, during conversations, atheists describe a god which I do not recognise or believe in, one which I do not associate with the God I believe in. They effectively build a straw man and accusing me of worshipping it, when I do not. Those type of conversations don't get very far.

So do you or don't you worship a God that sends people to he'll for not believing in him?

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 14:35

So do you or don't you worship a God that sends people to he'll for not believing in him?

@hyperbyke

If people don't recognise God as good, what Christ stood for as good and cannot let go of the aspect of themselves which goes against this, then they cannot have unity with God in heaven. Cannot have unity whilst fundamentally being in disagreement. I'm surprised you are suggesting that this is unfair if you do not want unity with God. That is, did say earlier you would not want to spend eternity in unity with God, which is what Heaven involves.🤷‍♀️

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 14:39

it's certainly not hate. I've done plenty of things in my life I'm not proud of, as has everyone, but nothing to warrant eternal suffering.
God offers forgiveness so you don't have to. Smile

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 14:41

@glimpsing

So do you or don't you worship a God that sends people to he'll for not believing in him?

@hyperbyke

If people don't recognise God as good, what Christ stood for as good and cannot let go of the aspect of themselves which goes against this, then they cannot have unity with God in heaven. Cannot have unity whilst fundamentally being in disagreement. I'm surprised you are suggesting that this is unfair if you do not want unity with God. That is, did say earlier you would not want to spend eternity in unity with God, which is what Heaven involves.🤷‍♀️

You're right, I can recognise a being that sends people to suffer for eternity as good.
hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 14:42

@glimpsing

it's certainly not hate. I've done plenty of things in my life I'm not proud of, as has everyone, but nothing to warrant eternal suffering. God offers forgiveness so you don't have to. Smile
So long as I worship something I don't even believe in. No thanks.
godwingolly · 08/11/2021 14:45

The philosopher, George Santayana, thought it was the devil who had radically accepted people were flawed and god who demanded perfection.

As it happens I have no concept of heaven or hell - so I’ve no philosophical dilemmas

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 14:54

You're right, I can recognise a being that sends people to suffer for eternity as good.

@hyperbyke

Heaven is a place where there is unity with God in love and harmony, according to my belief. Hell is the opposite. Which does involve letting go of ego. So a place which allowed for egos, disunity, disagreement, conflict etc etc. How could Heaven contain any of that and still be Heaven. If you want to cling on to ego, disunity, disagreement then this does not involve Heaven. Who knows maybe some people enjoy the challenge of conflict? Certain warrior peoples looked forward to fighting in the afterlife. But that type of afterlife is not Heaven as I understand it.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 14:56

You're right, I can recognise a being that sends people to suffer for eternity as good.

Oh, sorry, I misread. You can recognise this. @hyperbyke

Interesting...

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 14:58

N.b. First sentences in the last two of my posts were quoting you . @hyperbyke

AliceAldridge · 08/11/2021 15:00

If you let go of all religion, as I have done (raised a Catholic), you will never again have to struggle with the inconsistencies of them. Hint : the inconsistency is because they are made up, depending on the needs of the men in charge at the time.

This has been my experience too.

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 15:01

@glimpsing

You're right, I can recognise a being that sends people to suffer for eternity as good.

Oh, sorry, I misread. You can recognise this. @hyperbyke

Interesting...

Read what you want into a typo.
hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 15:03

@glimpsing

You're right, I can recognise a being that sends people to suffer for eternity as good.

@hyperbyke

Heaven is a place where there is unity with God in love and harmony, according to my belief. Hell is the opposite. Which does involve letting go of ego. So a place which allowed for egos, disunity, disagreement, conflict etc etc. How could Heaven contain any of that and still be Heaven. If you want to cling on to ego, disunity, disagreement then this does not involve Heaven. Who knows maybe some people enjoy the challenge of conflict? Certain warrior peoples looked forward to fighting in the afterlife. But that type of afterlife is not Heaven as I understand it.

If you think sending people to hell for not sharing your beliefs is acceptable, we are very different people.
DoesHePlayTheFiddle · 08/11/2021 15:05

@ksw0203

Hi everyone,

I'm a christian but I'm really struggling with the idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers, it just seems very cruel and unlike the God I think I know. Has anyone else struggled with this or has any parts of scripture that could suggest something other than this? I know that Judaism and some sects of early Christianity viewed hell as a temporary punishment that sort of 'refined' people but don't know how reliable this is?

Thanks!

I had an NDE. It's ok. He knows everyone, loves them all without exception, knows where they/we came from and how they/ we got to do what they/we did. It's not that Hell doesn't exist, more that it is redundant because of the breadth and depth of His love.
glimpsing · 08/11/2021 15:07

If you think sending people to hell for not sharing your beliefs is acceptable, we are very different people.

Stop acting like you are completely passive in this. You have the power to choose yourself whether you want unity with God in Heaven, @hyperbyke.

glimpsing · 08/11/2021 15:10

Or don't you agree that you have free will @hyperbyke? Sorry, I shouldn't assume. Some people don't believe they genuinely have free will.

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 15:13

@glimpsing

If you think sending people to hell for not sharing your beliefs is acceptable, we are very different people.

Stop acting like you are completely passive in this. You have the power to choose yourself whether you want unity with God in Heaven, @hyperbyke.

I can't make myself believe in something, even if I wanted to.
glimpsing · 08/11/2021 15:17

I can't make myself believe in something, even if I wanted to.

How do you think belief occurs? @hyperbyke?

hyperbyke · 08/11/2021 16:36

@glimpsing

I can't make myself believe in something, even if I wanted to.

How do you think belief occurs? @hyperbyke?

Not by force.

Could you make yourself not believe in God? or believe in a different God?

MissingSummertime · 08/11/2021 16:42

Hell is real and it is eternal. You would not wish your worst enemy to go there, it is a place of unimaginable torment and suffering. The darkness is absolute pitch black, the total absence of light. The demons that populate that place sole purpose is to inflict torment and pain. I am a very happy person who loves my life and family beyond words, I would however lay down my life if it meant that not one more single person went to hell.

If there was nothing we needed to be saved from, Jesus would not have chosen to suffer and die a terrible death on the cross.

MissingSummertime · 08/11/2021 16:47

Look at the account of Howard Storm, a former Atheist professor who died and experienced Hell first hand:

there are so many accounts like this, I am happy to list a few more. The love and saving grace of Jesus really is real. He is the only way to escape judgement and the second death (which is called the lake of fire in the bible)