Page 11 | Heaven/ hell

Cheekyandfreaky · 2018-05-05T22:36:59+00:00

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda). I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden. I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 27/05/2018 13:32

You understand that we're not really talking about your stance on contraception and whether you think the Catholic church is responsible, right. This was born from a question you posed about people making irrational decisions because of their religious beliefs. I think it's fairly clear that the non-use of contraception can be used as an example of where people make poor decisions about something because of what they believe and/or what their religion dictates. It's by no means the only example.

wendiwoowho · 27/05/2018 13:57

You are clearly skimming over a lot of this debate, and picking out things to suit your argument and ignoring the things which don't.
You are continuing to rehash points I have previously addressed.
I can only give my opinions on the teachings of the church in the same way you're only giving yours.
You accuse me of living in fantasy land but your opinion of religious people is clearly fantasy based on an old fashioned stereotype. I can tell you one truth and that is that your view is incorrect.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 27/05/2018 15:30

God always holds the freewill he created for us to have, giving us the freedom to believe Him or not. He doesn't force us to know Him, instead allows us to decide if we want to allow Him to enter our lives or not.

I think this is one of the very dangerous bits of propaganda that religious ideology and religious people try to propagate.

Where is this freewill? I know no one who has it, all of life, death & the misery in-between is forced upon us from conception. I wish religions would stop lying. Is it one big joke god is playing on us? "Get down on your knees and worship me in the full glory of the free will I have bestowed upon you, or I will force you onto your knees to worship me in the full glory of the free will I have bestowed upon you!"

God does indeed force belief upon us. There is no way to choose what we believe, either you are convinced of his existence or you aren't. I could no more choose to believe in a gods existence than I could decide to believe I could fly (drugs and mental illness aside). So if god in all his glory decided to make a personal revelation to me and I became a 'believer' then it would not have been my choice, he would have forced it upon me.

And once I became a 'believer' you might say I have the choice to reject his 'teachings', whatever they are no one seems to agree on them (so just make your own up). But its still not a free choice because he insists on holding a cosmic gun to our heads, "worship me, or I will pull the trigger and you can go to hell".

No wonder Lucifer ran as far away from heaven as he could get.

missfattyfatty · 27/05/2018 17:26

the irrationality of beliefs is inconsistency - that they fear going to hell for using a condom but not going to hell for having sex outside of marriage. if you have already done the latter what is the former then?

better as the WHO recommends now in Africa to get all men and young boys circumcised so whether they practise monogamy or safe sex etc or otherwise, they will still be at lower risk of HIV/AIDS and therefore their partners. something the old Hebrew prophets recommended for hygeine and water, not for promiscuity. but its a modern answer to the issue of rising STDs and lack of healthcare provisions.

orthodox Islam allows contraception for men and women and it even allows abortion upto 120 days, but it is very unequivocal this is not about making sex outside of marriage legit.

missfattyfatty · 27/05/2018 17:30

"orthodox Islam allows contraception for men and women and it even allows abortion upto 120 days, but it is very unequivocal this is not about making sex outside of marriage legit."

which is why low hiv rates amongst muslim majority populations in sub saharan africa were attributed to religious and cultural teachings not due to physical act of circumcision alone.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 29/05/2018 06:48

You accuse me of living in fantasy land but your opinion of religious people is clearly fantasy based on an old fashioned stereotype. I can tell you one truth and that is that your view is incorrect.

You asked for an example of where religious people make irrational decisions based on their faith. An example was provided, but you are making every effort to ignore the fact or argue against its potency. So yes, you are either living in a fantasy land or you are being dishonest. I'm sorry that your precious Catholic Church is and has been responsible for so many atrocities in the world and I'm sorry that just because your little bubble of local church community doesn't acknowledge it, you're not able to comprehend the bigger issues.

wendiwoowho · 29/05/2018 08:27

I did acknowledge that the church had a part to play in the example and no one ignores the big issues, it has been addressed in my church numerous times but you conveyed it as "entirely" the Churches fault which is incorrect. It was also yet another example of highlighting the actions of the few to condem the many. There are billions of people who practice their faith with peace and respect for others all we ask is the same back.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 29/05/2018 09:09

It was also yet another example of highlighting the actions of the few to condem the many.

And there you are still defending the church. The point is still valid that people make irrational decisions because they believe something without sufficient evidence.

There are billions of people who practice their faith with peace and respect for others all we ask is the same back.

I respect everyone's right to believe in whatever they want. But I do not (and nor do I have to) respect those beliefs which are held without sufficient evidence.

wendiwoowho · 29/05/2018 13:07

I’m not defending the Church. I literally just said I acknowledged their part in your example...

You believe that rational people can only make irrational decisions because of religion. This is not the case, and there is no truth or evidence to this.

I believe everyone makes a decision based on what they think is best for them and we all have the ability to make good or bad choice, which may be viewed as rational or irrational d pending on the situation, regardless of their religion. Everyone could be capable of making an irrational decision.

People make irrational choices, it’s down to the person. If they want to allow religion to consume and dictate their life that is up to them - they are making that choice not the Church.
We aren’t all robots, most people make decisions based on instinct rather than statistics.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 29/05/2018 13:43

You believe that rational people can only make irrational decisions because of religion. This is not the case, and there is no truth or evidence to this.

My position is that people make irrational choices because of their beliefs. Of course even non-religious people can make irrational decisions, but those decisions are made based on belief in something without sufficient evidence. But anyone who is prepared to simply believe something without sufficient evidence is more likely to make an irrational decision and religion is entirely founded on faith-based positions.

Everyone could be capable of making an irrational decision.

But they are much less likely to do so, if their beliefs are not based on faith.

If they want to allow religion to consume and dictate their life that is up to them - they are making that choice not the Church.

So the church has nothing to do with propogating irrational beliefs? Come on.

We aren’t all robots, most people make decisions based on instinct rather than statistics.

And, for example, people who choose not to immunise their children because their instinct tells them it's dangerous, rather than accepting the statistics which demonstrate that it's not, are behaving irrationally. That's kind of the definition.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 29/05/2018 13:46