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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Heaven/ hell

267 replies

Cheekyandfreaky · 05/05/2018 23:36

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

OP posts:
wendiwoowho · 13/05/2018 16:39

So god isn't into human sacrifice because Jesus ..... wasn't merely human.
Doesn't that undermine the whole point of the new testament, what did god actually sacrifice then? Did he just ask his son to hide in a cave for a few days?

I didn't say that God wasn't into human sacrifice because of this.
If you think Jesus was merely human, fair enough, but if He was then He wouldn't have been able to rise again a few days after death. I don't view the sacrifice of Jesus the same as human sacrifice, and I don't believe human sacrifice is what God wants. But this is only my opinion.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 13/05/2018 18:38

The Old Testament repeats dozens of times that God loves the pleasing aroma of burning flesh.

Did god change his mind about sacrifice, is the bible wrong or is this a part where we are supposed to pretend its a metaphor or poetry?

Vitalogy · 13/05/2018 19:00

Did god change his mind about sacrifice, is the bible wrong or is this a part where we are supposed to pretend its a metaphor or poetry? Could I also add, changed, added to, edited, made up, misheard.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 13/05/2018 19:17

If you think Jesus was merely human, fair enough, but if He was then He wouldn't have been able to rise again a few days after death.

So was Lazarus of Bethany not merely human either then? Or the half dozen or so specific other resurrected people mentioned in the bible, or the saints in Jerusalem who raised from their tombs? Were they all part god as well?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 13/05/2018 19:20

I don't believe human sacrifice is what God wants

How do you come to this conclusion? Or is it just a guess because you don't think that human sacrifice is a good thing and therefore your god shouldn't want this?

wendiwoowho · 13/05/2018 19:27

Like I said that is my belief. Jesus offered up Himself to be sacrificed, it isn't the same as a normal human being sacrificed imo.
I don't take the Bible literally and I don't agree with a lot that's within it.

Jason118 · 13/05/2018 19:59

So how do you choose which bits? Why not write your own and follow that? You could just buy the bits in you want to live by SmileSmile

Jason118 · 13/05/2018 19:59

Put the bits

WiseOldElfIsNick · 13/05/2018 20:40

I don't take the Bible literally and I don't agree with a lot that's within it.

In that case, why would you use it at all. If you can't tell which bits are true, literal, metaphorical, etc. then what is the point of it as any kind of guide?

Like I said that is my belief. Jesus offered up Himself to be sacrificed, it isn't the same as a normal human being sacrificed imo.

I agree completely here. Anyone who sacrifices themselves only to be resurrected three days later isn't really taking the whole sacrifice thing particularly seriously are they? I don't think it's really much of a sacrifice at all is it?

wendiwoowho · 13/05/2018 21:08

I don't live my life according to the bible though. People just assume that I must, especially if I claim to have faith, but for me it is so much more.
I have my beliefs and faith but I'm under no illusion that they may not be true. I don't live my life in fear of God, questioning what He would do or want me to do. I live my life freely, and as I am, in my opinion as I'm intended too.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 14/05/2018 09:47

I don't live my life according to the bible though.

But you do believe in Jesus and the resurrection? So you must take at least some of your belief and faith from the bible, no?

But in any case, what is it that you actually believe? If you don't live according to the Bible, then do you even identify as Christian?

What I don't understand, whether or not you get your belief from a scripture, why would you simply believe something to be true without reason? And if it doesn't actually affect how you live your life, why does it even matter to you?

wendiwoowho · 14/05/2018 12:11

In all honesty I just don't see religion and faith as black and white.
I don't agree with the 'the Bible says this so you must...' 'God won't be happy' assumptions.
The Bible has a lot of information in it, scriptures are important. But some quotes are interpreted differently by the different religions and people within Christianity.
I make my own decisions in my life, if it turns out that it hasn't been good enough then there's nothing I can do about it.
I don't think I need the Bible to do this personally. That doesn't mean I think it's not important. I just don't take it literally, or make my life decisions or choices based on it.
I think we all try our best, we all try to be decent human beings, we all know what's right and wrong. I believe God is compassionate and forgiving to all of us.
I don't proclaim that what I believe is truth, because no one really does know. But I don't strive for truth, I don't feel the need for answers or evidence. For me everything is too perfect to be down to luck or chance but I also agree with evolution.
I take a lot of hope and comfort from my faith, which I think most people do. It is very personal to me and it's not something I discuss often.
My religion is part of my culture and family history. But I do find it out dated and in need to move with the times. There are things I don't agree about within it, and I do hope one day these changes will come.
I think it's important for people within religion to push for the changes needed instead of walking away from it.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 14/05/2018 15:17

Forgive me if I've misunderstood. But from what you're saying, it sounds like you're not really religious at all. You take the bits of the bible which you think are useful and use those in some way which you find comforting (in which case you could probably do this with any writing you fancied), you don't live according to God's word or any biblical laws and you don't strive for truth, so what does the Bible really do for you in that case?

You say that you think god is forgiving of us all, in which case there's no point in really caring whether a god exists because its input is completely irrelevant. So I'm struggling to understand what your faith actually gives you?

Jason118 · 14/05/2018 15:33

It seems to me as if it's another version of the delusion that is religion. By convincing yourself that you are following a path (regardless of who's or where it's going), you find comfort that the journey makes sense to you, and that the destination construct you have made will be there in the end. Nothing wrong with that in my book. It's like you have your own belief system, but want to be part of something bigger, so you sort of attach to the religious culture you know, without actually committing to it.

wendiwoowho · 14/05/2018 16:25

If you don't think I'm religious then that's fine, but then what makes someone truly religious? How do you measure your faith?
I attend mass mostly every week, I take most of my values and morals from the churches teachings, I am part of an active religious group. I just don't hang of every word the Bible says. Religion for me isn't about the whole Bible, it isn't restrictive nor judgemental.
I do follow God's word within the teaching of the church.
Obviously I hope God exists or else I wouldn't believe, my faith brings me comfort and hope. I would love to find truth but I don't think there will be any in my life time, so it's not something I strive for.
I'm trying to be honest, I don't expect anyone to understand as I said it's personal.
I haven't convinced myself I'm following some path or journey, this is another common assumption.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 14/05/2018 16:57

There was a good debate on The Big Questions yesterday about Christians who dont believe in God, which seems to fit in well here. For example The Quakers are rewriting their rule book to remove the idea of a literal God and change it to what people feel about what a God is. That believing in a supernatural Jesus is not needed to be a Christian. The historians/theologians explained that the idea that God was an actual being, that Jesus was not literally the son of God didn't manifest until the 17th century.

In the same way that many Jews dont believe in a literal God, more and more Christians dont either, its just a cultural thing that makes some people feel good.

Jason118 · 14/05/2018 23:18

Interesting regarding Quakers - sounds like they're moving towards Humanism, but with added personal deity. I like the approach of Quakers, more listening than telling, and no compunction to coercion.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 09:37

If you don't think I'm religious then that's fine, but then what makes someone truly religious?

Well, ok, you've made some clarifications there which is great. It just sounded from your previous comments that you didn't really let religion interfere with your life at all whilst claiming to be religious, but I understand a little more about your position now, thank you.

How do you measure your faith?

Faith being the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence, I would say you could potentially measure your faith by counting all the things you believe without evidence and dividing this by the total number of all things you believe. This would give you a percentage of faith.

I take most of my values and morals from the churches teachings

This is always a curious one. I'd be really interested to know what values and morals there are which necessitate a church. Do you not have your own values and morals?

Obviously I hope God exists or else I wouldn't believe, my faith brings me comfort and hope.

I might have asked this before but I don't think I got an answer. What is it that you hope for? Are we talking afterlife here or is there something else you hope for? And what comfort does that bring you?

wendiwoowho · 15/05/2018 13:00

I do have my own values and morals. But these have been shaped by my family growing up and schooling, which were influenced through the church too.
I have strong family and community values.
I think respect is important, as well as love, compassion, solidarity and human dignity.
Kindness, generosity and helping others. Peace and forgiveness.
Of course anyone can have theses values regardless of how religious they are, anyone can 'do good' and be a good person.
Morally, I think most people know what's right and wrong for them. I still wouldn't say I make moral decisions because of the church though.

My hope is for something more I guess, to this life and in the afterlife.
I think this hope and comfort intensified after having children, the thought of not being with them one day, I know people say 'you'll be dead you'll know no different' and that may be the case if what I believe isn't true but I guess it just bring me more comfort thinking about watching over them and being with them, instead of it being the end.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 13:23

I do have my own values and morals. But these have been shaped by my family growing up and schooling, which were influenced through the church too.

So do you believe that your moral structure would be different if you didn't have the influence of the church?

I have strong family and community values.
I think respect is important, as well as love, compassion, solidarity and human dignity.
Kindness, generosity and helping others. Peace and forgiveness.
Of course anyone can have theses values regardless of how religious they are, anyone can 'do good' and be a good person.

And I think this is partly my point. What is the role of the church in these matters if anyone can have these values and morals? Does it not make the church unnecessary?

Morally, I think most people know what's right and wrong for them. I still wouldn't say I make moral decisions because of the church though.

Except you've kind of just said that you do. The church has influenced your moral structure, this surely means that the moral decisions you make are intrinsically linked to the church's influence.

My hope is for something more I guess, to this life and in the afterlife.
I think this hope and comfort intensified after having children, the thought of not being with them one day, I know people say 'you'll be dead you'll know no different' and that may be the case if what I believe isn't true but I guess it just bring me more comfort thinking about watching over them and being with them, instead of it being the end.

So, there was a 12 year-old Polish girl who's father had died of a heart attack in 2009. In 2013 was found hanged in her bedroom by her mother who was on her way to read her a bedtime story. She found a note from her daughter which read, 'Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again.'

This is a particularly harrowing story, but serves as a good example of outcomes which can occur from an irrational hope or belief that there is an afterlife. The mother has lost her husband and her daughter within 4 years and one of those losses was completely unnecessary.

My point is that whilst it seems like a comforting thought that we might continue on after we die, there are very serious consequences to holding this type of belief which can have significant impacts on other people and it stops this being a personal issue and suddenly it becomes very important that other people care what you believe.

wendiwoowho · 15/05/2018 14:13

It's hard to say for sure if it would have been different, but I'm guessing my family wouldn't have had the same morals and values which wouldn't have been passed to me, and I wouldn't have went to the same school, had the same friends and could have taken a completely different way and view of life.
Church just makes me question things more, it helps me think about my actions. I've done a lot of charity work through the church, things I wouldn't have done off my own back, it was as an eye opener. I've explored and experienced many different things through a religious group I am part of, which again has shown me different things. So in this way I think it has influenced things.
However morally, I don't think 'oh I better not do that because...' I conceived out of wedlock, I've used contraception all which go against the churches teachings and are seen as morally wrong, and I didn't second think my choices in making these decisions.
It doesn't make the church unnecessary because there is more to church than it's morals and values.

It certainly is a harrowing story, and very interesting point.
However is it purely down to the consequences of irrational hope or belief? Or in this particular story are there underlining issues? In the many religious people around the world I would say this is an uncommon story, one that's unlikely to happen. It isn't just religious people who protect their children from talking about death.
I would also say it's that same irrational hope, faith and belief which have kept people alive. Sometimes that's all people have left, and that's all that gets them through their darkness.

So you think it's important to know what people believe because you think it does impact others. Is this because you think that people who believe in an afterlife are more likely to commit suicide because they want to go there? And therefore it impacts their family and friends who get left behind?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 15:19

It's hard to say for sure if it would have been different, but I'm guessing my family wouldn't have had the same morals and values which wouldn't have been passed to me

Do you believe that morality is objective or subjective? It sounds like you think that you would consider a given action to be different morally depending on your upbringing and experiences.

Church just makes me question things more, it helps me think about my actions. I've done a lot of charity work through the church, things I wouldn't have done off my own back

But did that need to be a church which caused you to do those things or was it merely because you were part of a community which did those things? I have done charity work which I wouldn't have done off my own back because it was organised through my place of work. What does it make you question?

However morally, I don't think 'oh I better not do that because...'

I'm not suggesting that you do things because of a fear of god. Sorry if I've given you the impression that that's what I think. But it does sound like the church has provided you with guidance towards a moral framework, either directly or indirectly.

I conceived out of wedlock, I've used contraception all which go against the churches teachings and are seen as morally wrong

Do you agree with that view on morality (is this a Catholic church)? If not, then how do you determine which messages from the church to follow and which to ignore?

It doesn't make the church unnecessary because there is more to church than it's morals and values.

I was referring to its necessity in providing a moral guidance specifically.

It certainly is a harrowing story, and very interesting point.
However is it purely down to the consequences of irrational hope or belief? Or in this particular story are there underlining issues?

It's a good question. But do you think that the child would have committed suicide to be with her father if she did not believe that that was where she was going?

In the many religious people around the world I would say this is an uncommon story, one that's unlikely to happen.

Then how do you explain the religious suicide bombers who believe they are martyring themselves for their religion and will spend their afterlife in heaven as a result? It's not at all uncommon for a belief in an afterlife to have significant effects on how someone chooses to value the life which they know they have.

It isn't just religious people who protect their children from talking about death.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, you might choose not to discuss death with your children, but I personally think that this is a poor option. I freely discuss death with my son, partly through necessity as I've lost both my mother and my grandmother in the last two years and my wife has lost her uncle, grandmother and grandfather since he was born, so we've had to cover it, but I would hate to offer the promise of an afterlife to him when I clearly have no way of knowing whether one exists or not. My personal feeling is that by cushioning yourself in this way, you can make yourself thoroughly unprepared for dealing with things that world can throw at you.

I would also say it's that same irrational hope, faith and belief which have kept people alive. Sometimes that's all people have left, and that's all that gets them through their darkness.

Perhaps that's true. But wanting something to be true doesn't make it true and I would argue that if it wasn't for their belief in the supernatural in the first place, they may not be in a position where it's also the only thing which can help them. Religion creates a problem which doesn't exist and then offers you the solution. That's how they get you.

So you think it's important to know what people believe because you think it does impact others. Is this because you think that people who believe in an afterlife are more likely to commit suicide because they want to go there? And therefore it impacts their family and friends who get left behind?

Not exactly, although it's one element of it. I used to take the position that people are free to believe in whatever they want and I didn't care as long as it doesn't impact me. Whilst I still subscribe to people being free to believe whatever they want, I now find that I do care what they think. This is based on my position that I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. I know we've already ascertained that you don't really care whether the things you believe are true or not, but anyone who believes things without having sufficient evidence, can potentially believe anything at all (based on faith) and that means that they can make poor decisions in life based on what they believe.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 17:14

I might also add that there are plenty of people who deny appropriate medical treatment to their children because they 'believe' that praying or using witch doctors is sufficient. This is a dangerous practice purely based on unfounded beliefs with insufficient evidence.

wendiwoowho · 15/05/2018 19:08

I think it's subjective. I think what happens in your life defines and shapes your morals. That your morals can change depending on what happens in your life.

No it didn't have to be a church, it could have been anything I suppose, but in my case it was the church. It made me think about things, and others, view life differently despite my religious upbringing.

I don't think you've thought I do things in fear of God. But suggesting I do things because that's how the church views it is similar.

Yes, a Catholic Church. I don't agree on that morality. I previously said I didn't agree with things within the church. I don't chose to ignore certain messages, I make a decision which is best for my life with not really much thought about my religion. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, and this is how I chose to live my life. Religion isn't about believing the whole Bible, it isn't about doing everything 'right'. Religion doesn't control me and I am more than capable of making my own decisions on what is best.

I would say any Christian religious person willing to commit suicide to get to afterlife, seems very hardcore religious and therefore would believe and know that it's an unforgivable sin.

I don't think I would make poor decisions in life, and you can't possibly make that assumption just because I chose to believe in something without truth.
I do understand where you are coming from though, I too can view other people and wonder why they are so consumed by religion. I don't understand this either, so I have no answers. But this doesn't have to be religion. Most assume it is, it is for some, but for the vast majority people within my church this is not the case.
Prayers over medicine, is also silly in my opinion too. The religious people who would actually chose this are very little.
There are a lot of religious fanatics out there, I don't think they help with people's views on religion, and a lot of assumptions are made based on these people.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 16/05/2018 18:55

I think it's subjective. I think what happens in your life defines and shapes your morals. That your morals can change depending on what happens in your life.

Ok, that's really interesting actually. Most religionists (in my experience, anyway) believe in objective morality, in that god has defined the things which are good and the things which are bad. Personally, I subscribe the Sam Harris view that morality is objective once you agree on the subjective premise that morality should be linked to human well-being. If you agree the premise, then every action can be rated objectively against its effect on human well-being, e.g. cutting off someone's head is bad for their well-being, providing them with water they need is good for their well-being. I'm quite interested to hear how your morals might change over time, are there examples of things you thought were morally bad which now you think are morally good?

I don't think you've thought I do things in fear of God. But suggesting I do things because that's how the church views it is similar.

I don't think it's similar. Doing certain things because you've been part of a community which encouraged it is very different from doing things because of fear of punishment :)

Yes, a Catholic Church. I don't agree on that morality. I previously said I didn't agree with things within the church. I don't chose to ignore certain messages, I make a decision which is best for my life with not really much thought about my religion.

So what I don't understand about this (and I'm genuinely curious because it really baffles me) is why you would continue to be part of a community which sends messages with which you so adamantly disagree? I don't think I could stand it.

Religion isn't about believing the whole Bible, it isn't about doing everything 'right'. Religion doesn't control me and I am more than capable of making my own decisions on what is best.

You give a lot of things which religion isn't. So what really is it to you?

I would say any Christian religious person willing to commit suicide to get to afterlife, seems very hardcore religious and therefore would believe and know that it's an unforgivable sin.

I'm not sure you would necessarily call the 12 year old girl 'hardcore religious'. Children believe what they are told by their parents and other adults. It's an evolutionary beneficial trait. If they are told there's an after life they'll believe it, usually without question. If they are told that daddy is in heaven, they'll believe it. If they are told that when they die, they'll go to heaven too, they'll believe it. If they miss daddy so much that all they want to do is see him again.......it's no real stretch of the child's mind is it? This is not fundamentalism, it's indoctrination and it's dangerous.

I don't think I would make poor decisions in life, and you can't possibly make that assumption just because I chose to believe in something without truth.

I'm not saying you would, necessarily. I don't think anyone truly believes that they would make poor decisions. But I'm more inclined to trust someone who requires sufficient evidence and questions things they are told before they act upon them. You only have to look at social media to see the rubbish people re-post which they believe is true and they do not question but which propagates a lie or deceit. Almost invariably, I find it's those who are 'religious' or 'spiritual' in some way who post this stuff because they don't think to question anything. And some of the things which get thrown around can be genuinely dangerous, like the idea that if you put your PIN in backwards at an ATM it will call the police to your location. If you believed that was true, it could leave you in a pretty sticky situation.

Prayers over medicine, is also silly in my opinion too. The religious people who would actually chose this are very little.

That's actually not true. There are more that you might think. Whilst it's not quite the same thing, a Levin study in 2016 showed that 90% of Americans have prayed for someone to be healed and 80% have prayed for themselves to be healed, genuinely believing in the power of prayer. Whilst this isn't the same as choosing it over medicine, there are an alarming number of cases where individuals have declined medical treatment for themselves or their children because of their beliefs. Not all of these are religious either, mind. Some are just against 'big pharma' or they are anti-vaxxers, but they are still believing in something without sufficient evidence.

There are a lot of religious fanatics out there, I don't think they help with people's views on religion, and a lot of assumptions are made based on these people.

My personal view is that organised religion breeds the fanatics and extremists and fundamentalists and this in itself is enough to tell me that religion is inherently dangerous. I would never suggest that all people with religion are dangerous, but from the perspective that none of the supernatural claims are true and that religion cannot provide anything useful which cannot be obtained without religion, I just can't see why we need it.