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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Heaven/ hell

267 replies

Cheekyandfreaky · 05/05/2018 23:36

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

OP posts:
wendiwoowho · 16/05/2018 21:16

I'm quite interested to hear how your morals might change over time, are there examples of things you thought were morally bad which now you think are morally good?

I find the Heinz dilemma interesting when discussing morality.
I think it is possible to think something is morally wrong until you are put a position where you have to question it, and most of us haven't been in the position to 'test' our morals.

So what I don't understand about this (and I'm genuinely curious because it really baffles me) is why you would continue to be part of a community which sends messages with which you so adamantly disagree? I don't think I could stand it.

This happens with a lot of things in life.
Do you follow politics? There is no way every person who does can possibly agree with every policy a political party promotes. People don't agree with a lot of things within society, work, but how will things ever change for the better if people aren't trying to get that to happen.

You give a lot of things which religion isn't. So what really is it to you?

I have tried to explain previously what it is to me.

I'm not sure you would necessarily call the 12 year old girl 'hardcore religious'.

I must apologise for my choice of words, I was suppose to go back and use fanatic.
However; I have already stated that I think there must have been underlying issues, in the 12 year old little girls case. I couldn't imagine what would possess a child to commit suicide - and I really don't see this as a believing what they've been told type thing, this isn't normal behaviour for a child.

Whilst it's not quite the same thing, a Levin study in 2016 showed that 90% of Americans have prayed for someone to be healed and 80% have prayed for themselves to be healed, genuinely believing in the power of prayer.

It's really not the same thing. Why does it matter if people would pray for someone to get better? It's not changing anything. Again, it's not just religious people who do this.

Some are just against 'big pharma' or they are anti-vaxxers, but they are still believing in something without sufficient evidence.

The majority of people I know who are into conspiracies, are very anti-religious. But I don't assume that every non-religious person is the same, and would just believe anything because of this. But this is basically what you do regarding religious people?

You only have to look at social media to see the rubbish people re-post which they believe is true and they do not question but which propagates a lie or deceit.

Totally. Do you know the religion or beliefs of each person you have on social media though? I would say this is more of an assumption on your part, unless of course you do.

My personal view is that organised religion breeds the fanatics and extremists and fundamentalists and this in itself is enough to tell me that religion is inherently dangerous.

Unfortunately, I think you'd still get these fanatics, extremists and fundamentalists without religion.
You don't understand why people need it because you don't need it though.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 16/05/2018 21:53

This happens with a lot of things in life. Do you follow politics? There is no way every person who does can possibly agree with every policy a political party promotes. People don't agree with a lot of things within society, work, but how will things ever change for the better if people aren't trying to get that to happen.

I don't agree with everything any political party says, which is why I don't align with any one in particular and don't believe anything they say without questioning it. Same with people at work or in any social groups. This isn't a good analogy.

However; I have already stated that I think there must have been underlying issues, in the 12 year old little girls case. I couldn't imagine what would possess a child to commit suicide

I can. It's called religious belief. Even if this particular example was a rare occurrence. People do crazy things because of what they believe all the time.

and I really don't see this as a believing what they've been told type thing, this isn't normal behaviour for a child.

Do you think she came to the conclusion that she'd see her daddy in heaven all by herself then? No, I'm pretty sure she would have been told this by an adult, probably her mother, which would make the story even more sad. I agree it's not normal behaviour for a child. One of the things known to produce unusual behaviour in children is believing in things which are not true.

Why does it matter if people would pray for someone to get better? It's not changing anything. Again, it's not just religious people who do this.

Non-religious people don't pray. Prayer is a purely religious activity.

But I don't assume that every non-religious person is the same, and would just believe anything because of this. But this is basically what you do regarding religious people?

No, I don't view every religious person the same at all. But I can view certain aspects of people who have the same characteristics as being similar. I question anyone who will freely believe anything without sufficient evidence, religious or not.

Totally. Do you know the religion or beliefs of each person you have on social media though? I would say this is more of an assumption on your part, unless of course you do.

I do. Because I know everyone on social media who I'm linked with personally.

Unfortunately, I think you'd still get these fanatics, extremists and fundamentalists without religion.

To quote Steven Weinberg, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

You don't understand why people need it because you don't need it though.

That's such a weak, dismissive comment. It's almost as bad as saying I don't understand god because I've never experienced him. I genuinely don't believe that anybody needs religion. Anything it can offer can be offered elsewhere without the need to believe in the supernatural, with the exception, of course, being where someone is in a position because of religion and that religion has offered the only way out (and even then, it's only a perception that religion is the only answer).

wendiwoowho · 16/05/2018 23:36

I don't agree with everything any political party says, which is why I don't align with any one in particular and don't believe anything they say without questioning it. Same with people at work or in any social groups. This isn't a good analogy.

Yet you seem to have a few dangerous people you know personally on your social media.
I think it's only natural to question things, I question my religion constantly. I'm a very sceptical person.

I can. It's called religious belief. Even if this particular example was a rare occurrence

Like you said it is a rare occurrence. Especially when compared against the amount of people that have a faith and practice this peacefully and with respect. I believe you are using the examples of the actions of the few to judge the many. Far more children commit suicide for non religious reasons, social media, violent computers games? Ban them. This is maybe a bit strong but why should religion be abolished of the actions of the extreme minority but the others not?

I agree it's not normal behaviour for a child. One of the things known to produce unusual behaviour in children is believing in things which are not true.

This is simply not true. Children believe many things which are not true because they are children, and their world should be partly make believe.

Non-religious people don't pray. Prayer is a purely religious activity.

It would be interesting to see what your interpretation of prayer is?
But it isn't uncommon for non-religious people to seek God in desperation.

To quote Steven Weinberg, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

You can't possible know what a world without religion would be like though, it's always been part of society, and it probably has shaped humanity in many ways. Fair enough it may have been better, but we will never know. You certainly couldn't believe this, as there's no truth to this claim.

That's such a weak, dismissive comment. It's almost as bad as saying I don't understand god because I've never experienced him. I genuinely don't believe that anybody needs religion. Anything it can offer can be offered elsewhere without the need to believe in the supernatural, with the exception, of course, being where someone is in a position because of religion and that religion has offered the only way out (and even then, it's only a perception that religion is the only answer).

This is your opinion. Mines is different.

headinhands · 18/05/2018 08:39

You don't understand why people need it because you don't need it though.

But you're negating the experience of many ex believers here. I used to be a believer. I feel that my faith was a way to try and make some sense of the world and a hope that everything would be nice in the end. And it gave me a feeling of acceptance among a group of people.

I think I hang around here because I'd like to understand why I believed it.

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 09:02

I think once you know the truth it can't be unknown, so maybe it wasn't the truth.

headinhands · 18/05/2018 11:26

I think once you know the truth it can't be unknown, so maybe it wasn't the truth.

So the speaking in tongues? The worship experiences? That wasn't god? What was it?

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 11:59

What were your worship/speaking in tongues experiences.

headinhands · 18/05/2018 12:33

What were your worship/speaking in tongues experiences.

I was baptised in the spirit. Received the gifts of tongues. Received prophesies etc. If you don't think it was god what do you think it was? Why would god let me be deceived?

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 12:53

I was baptised in the spirit. Received the gifts of tongues. Received prophesies etc I don't recognise any of that personally.
Did any of it make sense to you headinhands

headinhands · 18/05/2018 13:27

Did any of it make sense to you

At the time yes. I could see the bible promised gifts from the spirit. I could see other people speaking in tongues and receiving prophecies for people. It made sense in I thought I'd been given something from god.

Now knowing what I do about psychology I view it different obviously.

But you feel I can't have had a genuine relationship and I somehow wasn't a Christian?

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 14:16

But you feel I can't have had a genuine relationship and I somehow wasn't a Christian? I have no opinion on whether you were a Christian or not. I'm not a Christian.

It made sense in I thought I'd been given something from god.* I don't believe we are given it, I believe it's something we are.

headinhands · 18/05/2018 16:23

i have no opinion

think once you know the truth it can't be unknown, so maybe it wasn't the truth.

So you think I did or didn't know the truth? On the basis that I am no longer a Christian? But I honestly thought I was. I honestly thought I loved god etc.

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 16:37

Looks like you've decided it wasn't your truth.

headinhands · 18/05/2018 16:49

Looks like you've decided it wasn't your truth.

Yes but at the time, for 15 years it felt very real and genuine. So you think it's possible for someone to earnestly believe they're a Christian but actually not be at all. Wouldn't you expect god to honour someone's earnest yearning for him?

wendiwoowho · 18/05/2018 17:28

But you're negating the experience of many ex believers here. I used to be a believer. I feel that my faith was a way to try and make some sense of the world and a hope that everything would be nice in the end. And it gave me a feeling of acceptance among a group of people.

I have said that many people lose their faith.
I find that people who did once believe are less judgemental of people who still do because they tend to understand a little more. This doesn't mean that people who have never don't either.

Before now, had you always been a believer?
Do you think there is no need for religion?

Vitalogy · 18/05/2018 17:31

Wouldn't you expect god to honour someone's earnest yearning for him? I think yearning and the image of a him can be obstacles.

headinhands · 19/05/2018 10:02

I think yearning and the image of a him can be obstacles

Sorry can you explain?

Vitalogy · 19/05/2018 16:28

I don't believe god is a him to look to and worship, more of a life force, something that is inside us/outside us, everywhere and everything. So looking away from oneself to a separate god like being isn't going to help.

speakout · 19/05/2018 16:44

Vitalogy yes I get that. Like a Spinoza god.

Vitalogy · 19/05/2018 18:09

Would you class that as being the non physical world too speakout

headinhands · 19/05/2018 20:47

I think once you know the truth it can't be unknown, so maybe it wasn't the truth.

Where do you think I went wrong? If you could have spoken to me when I was losing my faith what would you have told me to do?

Vitalogy · 19/05/2018 21:28

Have you looked into the Eastern philosophies at all headinhands

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 02:42

Sounds like the force you mention is like a Jedi type feelingSmile

speakout · 20/05/2018 05:03

Jason118 perhaps Jason118. Like quantum physics.
I am an atheist.

Madhairday · 20/05/2018 09:12

Late to all of this.

Hello headinhands :) out of interest, what do you think was the catalyst for you losing faith - was it a sudden realisation or a gradual withdrawing process? Did those around you at the time attempt to help, and what sort of things did they do/say? (I recognise that sometimes this kind of 'help' is not help at all.)

FWIW, I think your experience was authentic. You obviously had a depth of experience and believed it yourself. You now think that was a psychological reaction to those around you and the pressure perhaps to behave in a certain way? I get that, I think certain Christian environments can be damagingly overbearing and try to manipulate people's behaviour and reactions. By no means all, thankfully. You think then that my experience is psychological too and that I am somewhat back in the false belief you were, and I guess there are no words I can use to convince you I'm not - too much subjectivity. Yet I remain convinced of my faith, after all these years and all these questions and all these difficulties in my life. It's still a powerful, sustaining and energising thing.

What was the original question on this thread again? Something about heaven and hell?