Heaven/ hell

[Cheekyandfreaky]

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

What if we are in both heaven and hell right now?

It's the only way I can make any sense of life.

Heaven and hell is a religious construct.

No it doesn't take away your rational thought- but you choose not to apply it to your belief.

And this is precisely the point. One can be completely rational about everything else, but then bizarrely suspend all critical thinking for the sake of one's religion.

He was probably denounced as a heretic because it’s a Buddhist belief.

It scares me how religion thinks it has a monopoly on the states of goodness, kindness, love , compassion etc - it doesn’t. Unless you have genuine psychopathic tendencies, most people are genuinely good and kind and are able to determine a good and positive life for themselves, and have a positive impact on those around them and society at large, without having to adhere to strict rules and some pretty crazy rituals, to ensure their entry to “heaven”.

Most people have and do critically think about their religion though.
If you think religious people hear and see all the heartache happening in this world and don't question God's part in it all, you're wrong.
What irrational decisions do you think people make because of their religion?
Not using another example of the few in order to judge the many.

Contraception - there's a biggie for you.

Contraception - there's a biggie for you.

This is a personal choice, most women chose not to be on contraceptives due to a range of different reasons, other than a religious one.

The vast majority of people do use them, because society has changed, people no longer feel the need to be married before having sex and sex isn't purely for reproduction.

I know a large percent of Catholics are in support of using contraception.

Contraception - there's a biggie for you.

This is a personal choice, most women chose not to be on contraceptives due to a range of different reasons, other than a religious one.

So are we ignoring the millions of Catholics in Africa who do not use condoms because of their religion and end up spreading AIDS like wildfire? To simply reduce your opinions on this to your local environment is to ignore a very real world problem which is entirely the fault of the Catholic Church.

The vast majority of people do use them, because society has changed

Not in Africa it hasn't.

people no longer feel the need to be married before having sex and sex isn't purely for reproduction.

Again, this is possibly true in the UK. But not in other parts of the world and certainly not in other religions.

I know a large percent of Catholics are in support of using contraception.

What percentage do you know of?

I understand the issues in Africa, but AIDS has been spread more through poverty and the rape on innocent women. So how is it entirely the Catholic Churches fault?
It also has thousands of schools, orphanages and hospitals in Africa trying to help.

Anyone who is that strict in their religion to not use condoms, should also not be 'spreading HIV like wildfire' as they would be more likely to follow all the churches teachings and therefore not be having sex before marriage or with anyone other than their spouse.

78% of Catholics from around the world support the use of contraception.

"Anyone who is that strict in their religion to not use condoms, should also not be 'spreading HIV like wildfire' as they would be more likely to follow all the churches teachings and therefore not be having sex before marriage or with anyone other than their spouse"

This is the one of the most naive comments I have seen regarding contraception and Catholicism.

This is the one of the most naive comments I have seen regarding contraception and Catholicism.

Why?

I'm not saying that's how it is, I have previously said religious people don't follow what the church says word for word - they don't, I know they don't because I am a practising Catholic. So why when it comes to contraception do people out with the faith assume that all these same people must follow that teaching because the church says so? But not the others?

78% of Catholics from around the world support the use of contraception.

Based on a poll taken in 12 countries which included only two in Africa, Democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda, who were both found to support contraception at rates at 44%.

I'm not saying the Catholic Church has no part in this, but it certainly isn't entirely down to the Catholic Church which you stated.

It's impossible to get a 100% accurate poll but it's the biggest snapshot I could find. But if you have happened to have found another I'm more than happy to read it.
But the poll does show that the majority of Countries involved are in favour of it.

9 in 10 people support it in the UK.

I'm not saying the Catholic Church has no part in this, but it certainly isn't entirely down to the Catholic Church which you stated.

This stemmed from you questioning what irrational decisions people might make because of their religion. African Catholics choosing not to use contraception because of their religion is an irrational decision especially given the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases there. So I think the point is made.

So because some Africans from a deeply deprived area, who also do not have reasonable or easy access to contraceptive anyway, may chose not to use contraception due to their religious beliefs therefore proves that the majority of religious people make irrational decisions. Once again using an example of the few against the many.

It's hardly the few, we're talking about 7 million people in Uganda alone who are opposed to contraception. And you were after an example of where someone might make an irrational decision based on their religion. This is an example, but you seem to be attempting to refute that it is exactly what you asked for. There are plenty of irrational things which people do because of their religion. Might be that a relative minority does each specific thing, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the collective evidence that irrational belief can lead to irrational decisions.

I'm not refuting it, I fully understand that this can and does happen. But there are plenty other people who do irrational things without religion but these repeatedly minor examples seem to be enough to condemn the billions of religious people who do not make irrational choices.

7 million is a lot of people but in the context of 1.2 billion Catholics that's less than 1%?

You mentioned AIDS in Africa spreading like wildfire being entirely the Catholic Churches fault, this is what I'm disputing.

7 million is a lot of people but in the context of 1.2 billion Catholics that's less than 1%?

7 million in Uganda. Plus 19 million in DRC, 22 million in the Philippines, 11 million in the USA, 11 million in Mexico, 3 million in Columbia, 6.5 million in Brazil, 2.5 million in Argentina, 1.5 million in France, 7 million in Poland, 2 million in Spain and 6.5 million in Italy. So that's nearly 100 million already and only from the 12 countries which were polled.

The non-use of condoms for religious reasons is entirely the fault of the Catholic Church. Christianity is the only religion which imposes a blanket ban on contraception. Obviously, yes, there will be other reasons for the spread of AIDS and I'm sorry if I was not clear on that, but religion, specifically Catholicism, plays a huge part in Africa. It is not helped by the level of education being relatively low in Africa meaning that the population rely heavily on the mandates of religion, for various reasons.

But there are plenty other people who do irrational things without religion

This isn't an argument against religion causing people to do irrational things though. Sure, rational people will do rational things, irrational people will do irrational things. But for rational people to do irrational things, you need religion (or at least faith/belief in something without sufficient evidence).

Actually speaking about HIV in Africa, when the first studies on low hiv prevalence amongst circumcised men were published, critics said not to include Muslim populations in the studies as it was their religious and cultural traditions that could impact hiv prevalence rather than circumcision itself. Not just inhibition to see otside marriage but also hygiene rules, low rates of alcohol imbibement etc. This was a widely accepted criticism and so later studies did not include Muslim majority populations because of that.

Catholic Africans would also have the same rules against sex outside of marriage as Muslims do, and they also believe in faith and works, but for some reason promiscuity was culturally ok but condom usage was not. But anyway they’re now other by public health and WHO to get circumcised instead!

Choosing not to use contraception isn't always an irrational decision. You can't possibly know how many people opposing contraception are making an irrational decision based on their view.

Yes the Catholic Church are saying no contraception but they are also saying no sex out with marriage and only for reproduction. So the chance of STIs and unwanted pregnancies aren't there, which is what makes not using contraception irrational.

Anyways I've already expressed that I find these old fashioned views, that society has moved on.

So you've never know of a rational person to end up doing something irrational? 🤔

Choosing not to use contraception isn't always an irrational decision. You can't possibly know how many people opposing contraception are making an irrational decision based on their view.

No, but if you have sex without the intent of reproducing and you don't use some form of contraception then I would consider that to be irrational.

Yes the Catholic Church are saying no contraception but they are also saying no sex out with marriage and only for reproduction. So the chance of STIs and unwanted pregnancies aren't there, which is what makes not using contraception irrational.

Really? Are you honestly that blind to how the world operates in reality?

I'm sorry, but no institution is going to tell me who I have sex with, when, where, in what position and with what contraception. To suggest that an instruction to not have sex is the solution for not using contraception is..... well, I just don't have any words.

Anyways I've already expressed that I find these old fashioned views, that society has moved on.

You seem to be living in a fantasy land where STDs, promiscuity and rape don't exist.

So you've never know of a rational person to end up doing something irrational?

Not without them being convinced of something without sufficient evidence, no.

To be clear, my issue on irrational choice is not exclusive to religion. It is any practice which results in belief in something without sufficient evidence. It just happens that religion is one of the most prominent phenomenons which results in this occurring.

No, but if you have sex without the intent of reproducing and you don't use some form of contraception then I would consider that to be irrational.

Of course it is, but I mentioned that in my previous post too.
I've known many rational unreligious people who didn't, but by your logic that shouldn't happen?

Really? Are you honestly that blind to how the world operates in reality?

No I'm not but why do you think a Catholic person would chose not to use contraception but happily forget other things? This is my point.
People are either going to be strict and follow everything which is marriage, sex, no contraception, no infidelity and sex for reproduction.
But most people do not do this because they don't want too, their choice for not using contraception is nothing to do with the Catholic Church. At the end of the day it's their choice.
*
I'm sorry, but no institution is going to tell me who I have sex with, when, where, in what position and with what contraception. To suggest that an instruction to not have sex is the solution for not using contraception is..... well, I just don't have any words.*

No most people don't allow it to either.
Natural family planning would be suggested by the church as a solution for not using contraception and not wanting a child.
Which is why most people support the use of proper contraception.

You seem to be living in a fantasy land where STDs, promiscuity and rape don't exist.

🙄 which is why I don't agree with the churches stance on contraception, because these things do happen, people tend not to listen to the church, but they do when it suits your argument?

Are rapists not wearing condoms the fault of the Catholic Church too?