Heaven/ hell

[Cheekyandfreaky]

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

patriachy

I don’t think the bible needs to be ‘true’ in order to be helpful or comforting or to create a guide with which to live to life.

I’m not a Christian but I love reading ancient texts of all ilks because it’s so comforting to see that often the troubles you have in your own life are universal and human problems that people were battling with even thousands of years ago.

I cannot imagine a less comforting text than the Bible taken as a whole if you are an unbeliever - or in fact a believer who cares about unbelievers - given the awful post-death fate that it promises for unbelievers.

However, if you can put to one side the discriminatory salvation story, then it is possible to find in the social gospel of Jesus something of value and comfort to all sections of humanity.

The bible contains as many disturbing and immoral passages as it does nice friendly ones (if not more). The problem is that every individual decides for themselves which bits they think are literal and which bits they think are metaphorical. I can do exactly the same thing with Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings and come to similar conclusions.

I don't feel that I need any book to tell me how I should go about being a good human being. Nor do I think that I would be performing morally if I only did good things because I was afraid of being punished for eternity if I didn't.

People who say they draw their morality from the Bible are deluded. For exactly the reasons described below. The Bible contains some really good, moral lessons. It also contains a lot of horrible ones.

If you draw your morality from the Bible, how do you decide which lessons to follow and which to ignore/treat as allegory etc? Humans have a sense of morality separate from religion and religious texts.

'Morality' as we know it, comes from evolution and from societal norms.

It isn't an instruction manual!
It's a record of a group of people and how they saw God over several thousands of years of oral history.

Actually, some bits of it are an instruction manual, relevant to Jews a few hundred years BC. Some bits are poetry and songs, written to express the emotions of the author. Some bits are history, as remembered and interpreted by the people of the time. All of that then got edited and selected to fit the agenda of the early Church fathers. It is no more a literal and complete truth than a cookery book is a complete description of what British people eat.

Anyway, back to sitting on my thumbs. Sorry cheeky!

Pickle

But nobody uses a cookery book to tell others what they can and can't eat. Nobody uses a cookery book to 'prove' that their food is the food 'chosen' by God. Nobody uses a cookery book to show that other peoples food isn't as good as theirs and they are going to be punished for all eternity for liking it.

You see the difference?

I believe hell is simply being denied an afterlife, and heaven is eternal life with God. Just my personal interpretation.

I'm not telling you, or anyone else, what to believe or do. I'm finding my own path and am happy for you to do the same.

I already know the difference. It's your interpretation of the bible which is causing you trouble.
I'm saying it isn't an instruction book, any more than a cookery book is.

Pickle

But your interpretation is the correct one. Obviously.

Right...

🤔

Last thing I'll say.

I haven't interpreted it here, I have described it. I have studied the bible academically, at university, not from a faith perspective. It is a collection of different documents with different contexts and cultures and times, put together more or less by committee. That is fact, not interpretation.

I don't understand why you are dogmatic about this. Are you from an area where your local church/society is attempting to force you to behave in particular ways and have certain beliefs? That would be very wrong.

Anyway, I am not interested in arguing. It doesn't help either of us. Goodnight.

Pickle

Your description of how the Bible came to be is the classic straw man that is always wheeled out to defend it from attack. I have never claimed it was written any other way, how it came to be is an irrelevancy.

The point is that it is commonly used as an instruction book by the religious.

You came on this thread asking people not to tell you what 'your God' was like. Well how do you know what your God is like? The only descriptions we have of his behaviour are in the Bible, and they are pretty fucking horrific for the most part.

Some Christians use the Bible as an instruction book. These Christians are very conservative or fundamentalists.

Most Christians in the UK are not very conservative or fundamentalists.

When my children were doing RE at school one of the key things they had to be able to get into exam questions was 'some Christians believe' and 'some Christians practice' which was hard as even the teachers could be ignorant of this simple fact. Thankfully in one school there were a number of preachers kids from differing traditions in my son's class who could put any teacher with an 'all Christians believe that....' approach right.

The Bible isn't the only source of information about God for Christians. There are the writings of the church fathers and mothers, the writings of the mystics, the different monastic traditions, poetry, art, the reflections and debates of theologians, etc, etc and prayer. If you are not part of a faith group then I can understand how easy it would be to miss this stuff but prayer is where Christians expect to met God today. I have to get moving to get to a prayer breakfast which leads into a very busy day. Part of today is a course about prayer during which prayer will happen and there will be study and practice of differing types of prayer. God will be present. I know that because God usually is.

Going back to heaven and hell. The official C of E doctrinal position was stated in the 1987 report ' The Mystery of Salvation' which states that if hell exists it is likely to be empty. It caused a bit of a debate at the time and not all parts of the a C of E take any notice of it but it is there to be read if anyone wants to check. The C of E isn't all Christians but in the UK we are a significant number.

Greenheart

Some Christians use the Bible as an instruction book. These Christians are very conservative or fundamentalists

I'm not talking about biblical literalism, I'm talking about using the Bible as an authoritative text that underpins their worldview and opinions. Most Christian (in my experience) do this. When you confront them on the content of the Bible however, they always revert to this mealy mouthed 'it's not an instruction book' position, even though it underpins almost all of their ideas.

The Bible isn't the only source of information about God for Christians. There are the writings of the church fathers and mothers, the writings of the mystics, the different monastic traditions, poetry, art, the reflections and debates of theologians, etc, etc and prayer

But the Bible is the only source that claims to be (in parts) first hand witness statements and descriptions of God's behaviour. All the other sources you cite are just people, telling other people what they think. Did they just make it up? Probably.

Part of today is a course about prayer during which prayer will happen and there will be study and practice of differing types of prayer. God will be present. I know that because God usually is

How does God make you aware of his presence during these meetings? Does he speak to you? What does he sound like? I ask because (and I'm honestly not trying to be cruel) if you hear voices talking to you, then that is far more likely to be a sign of mental illness than divine intervention. If you don't hear voices, but instead just get a 'feeling' from God, then again I'm afraid that is far more likely to be your own subconscious than it is an external, supernatural power.

I'm afraid that is far more likely to be your own subconscious than it is an external, supernatural power. So you aren't dismissing it completely then.

Wow. Don't worry about the cruelty this is just a message board. So someone who has never met me has diagnosed mental illness and not just me but all Christians who have religious experience. Enjoy your day.

Greenheart

If you hear voices talking to you in your head, particularly if they are telling you to do things, you are mentally ill. That's not cruelty, it's a fact.

Unless you are a clinician with the relevant qualifications who has met me and done a though assessment you are just some bloke on the Internet who has some odd ideas about people of faith. Real cruelty is the murder, torture and rape of people of faith for their beliefs. As I said - have a nice day.

So you aren't dismissing it completely then

Of course not. It's impossible to prove either way. But until there is sufficient evidence, there's no reason to believe it at all. No more than the existence of the tooth fairy or father christmas.

Sorry, your arguments are not rational. I didn't come on here 'asking people not to tell me what my God was like'. I came on here to reflect on the nature of heaven and hell in response to OP's question. It's other people who insisted on derailing the thread, accusing people of believing things they do not believe, holding us to account for a god that is not a reflection of our faith.

You can debate and interpret to your heart's content, but you do not know me or what I believe.
You are projecting.

Pickle

You don't know me or what I believe

And bingo, the defensive Christian full house.

When challenged, become incredibly vague and avoid all criticism by claiming 'thats not what I believe'

Thanks for coming.

Eh? What a load of nonsense.

I’m disappointed that what could have been a really interesting discussion about the concept of heaven and hell got derailed.

Going back to the OP.

There is a really interesting book on the history of Hell called oddly enough 'The History of Hell' by Alice Turner. It is getting on a bit now but I'm not aware of anything more recent although I can look on my computer when I get home. I did a masters module on perceptions of the afterlife in the Christian tradition a few years ago at a secular university and the core text was Mcdannel and Lang 'Heaven a History.' Another good text is Paula Gooder 'Heaven' from 2011.

Despite what some atheists tell you on the net the Christian response to heaven and hell is varied and a bit complicated.

It's impossible to prove either way Use yourself as the measure and you can prove it.

And bingo, the defensive Christian full house. It's been bingo with your responses too.