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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Heaven/ hell

267 replies

Cheekyandfreaky · 05/05/2018 23:36

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

OP posts:
WiseOldElfIsNick · 11/05/2018 13:44

No one is saying faith is a pathway to truth. Just because you care about the evidence in things doesn't make it not okay to have belief or faith in something without.
I can understand your need to answers but really there isn't any, but you already know that.

On the contrary, I'll think you'll find plenty of people who 'find' truth through their faith.

I don't need to have answers, I'm quite happy saying that I don't know the answers to many things. But are you saying that you don't care whether what you believe is true?

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want, but I care about how people come to believe things because if someone is prepared to believe anything without sufficient evidence, then it will affect the decisions they make in life and that can have a significant impact on the people around them.

wendiwoowho · 11/05/2018 14:17

I don't need to have answers, I'm quite happy saying that I don't know the answers to many things. But are you saying that you don't care whether what you believe is true?

I don't need to have answers either, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about whether what I believe is true?
I don't claim it is either, obviously I hope it is but no one truly knows. My beliefs and faiths, are mine. I'm not standing up preaching to people that they are wrong or hounding them for reasons why they believe what they do instead of what I do.

I don't think atheists are missing anything btw, I hope that's not how it's come across in my posts. I was just trying to say why I think it's hard for religious people to describe their faith and why atheists don't seem to understand because they can't relate.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/05/2018 14:10

So it seems on this thread the truth comes down to a being an indescribable feeling.

I wonder how anyone concludes that a god is the cause of this indescribable feeling? I suspect the answer to that is within oneself.

But as we know, 'feelings' have all sorts of causes, drugs, mental illness, childhood trauma, indoctrination, etc. So for me someone would have to demonstrate that a god could actually exist before it would be sensible to consider him as a possible cause of an indescribable feeling, rather than one of the many other rational explanations.

picklemepopcorn · 12/05/2018 14:51

I would liken it more to the differences between me and DH. He does not get the subtleties of colour, art, music... I don't get maths. He can explain fancy maths to me as much as he likes, but it doesn't 'take'. Equally, he doesn't have the language/discrimination to get artistic type things. It isn't a full parallel, but it's goes a little way to describing it.

headinhands · 12/05/2018 16:29

He does not get the subtleties of colour, art, music... I don't get maths.

I used to 'get' faith. I had experiences and spoke in tongues. I now view it as a common psychological trick of the mind with no supernatural cause.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/05/2018 17:27

I don't get maths. He can explain fancy maths to me as much as he likes, but it doesn't 'take'. Equally, he doesn't have the language/discrimination to get artistic type things

Its just like that. Only some people say there is a invisible green imp living in their head that pokes neurons around triggering thoughts that explains how Math works and no-one else gets it because they dont listen to that tingling in their head.

Other people disagree, saying there is no such imp, but there is a non corporeal cookie monster living in their bowels who causes you to have a weird feeling every time time they eat a non-corporeal cookie which when you interpret that feeling using a 2000 year old book it explains the beauty of Art. And no one else gets Art because they dont listen to the feeling in their bowels that the cookie monster gives them.

Other people might say they had a headache and gas but they would be wrong. The answer is within yourself.

speakout · 12/05/2018 18:11

Walkingdeadfangirl

Well exactly, and I loved that explanation.

speakout · 12/05/2018 18:13

I would liken it more to the differences between me and DH. He does not get the subtleties of colour, art, music... I don't get maths. He can explain fancy maths to me as much as he likes, but it doesn't 'take'. Equally, he doesn't have the language/discrimination to get artistic type things. It isn't a full parallel, but it's goes a little way to describing it.

At least you are happy to reduce things to a cognitive level rather than a sky god.
Very encouraging.

picklemepopcorn · 12/05/2018 18:26

How very deep and perceptive of you. I wish you much joy, but will leave you to your ponderings as I clearly have nothing to offer you.

wendiwoowho · 12/05/2018 19:14

So it seems on this thread the truth comes down to a being an indescribable feeling.

I wonder how anyone concludes that a god is the cause of this indescribable feeling? I suspect the answer to that is within oneself.

I think it's more of a hope rather than truth. And I don't think it necessarily comes from God, just the feeling of 'something more'.

Vitalogy · 12/05/2018 19:29

I believe it makes sense and I believe it is the truth.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 12/05/2018 19:52

Why on earth would you hope such a thing was true?

wendiwoowho · 12/05/2018 20:09

Why on earth would you hope such a thing was true?

Why not?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 13/05/2018 01:29

I can see why someone might hope something was true. If you have a shitty life or are scared of death, hoping there is 'something more' can be soothing.

But hope turning into belief is dangerous. You might hope you can fly but when you start believing it ....

For people without belief/faith, they have no problem with people hoping whatever they want. What they worry about is when that hope turns into belief and starts demanding privileges or trying to enforce their hope/belief on others that it becomes scary. Some of us have studied the present history.

So when someone hopes or believes in a heaven/hell it is quite worrying because that's just one step away from what they will they do to get to one and force others into the other.

DioneTheDiabolist · 13/05/2018 02:06

I don't believe in hell. Beyond that which we pass on here. So I suppose I agree with you OP. If hell exists, it does so to the living on earth.

speakout · 13/05/2018 07:47

Why would a god want anyone go to hell? Even unbelievers or those who choose a different religion?
And why is human sacrifice acceptable?
It's a particularly barbaric and brutal form of atonement. Perhaps acceptable in some parts of the world at some point in time but god should have seen how unfashionable human sacrifice would become.

wendiwoowho · 13/05/2018 08:01

I believe everyone deserves the chance to go to Heaven, and I believe that God does give everyone this chance.
Human sacrifice is unacceptable, it is something I don't agree with too.

headinhands · 13/05/2018 08:52

Human sacrifice is unacceptable, it is something I don't agree with too.

Jesus' was the ultimate human sacrifice.

wendiwoowho · 13/05/2018 09:20

Yes Jesus was sacrificed but He wasn't merely human.
The Old Testament clearly states the God stands opposed to human sacrifice.

speakout · 13/05/2018 10:15

Jesus' was the ultimate human sacrifice.*

So human sacrifice is a good thing?

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 13/05/2018 10:18

Assuming there was a historical figure Jesus, I do wonder if he really thought of himself as a divine sacrificial saviour at the time. In my opinion this idea could have been developed later as his followers tried to put a positive spin on his death.

Related to this is a particular passage in the bible that sits theologically apart from other passages, at least in some translations.

Compare the words of Jesus in Luke 17 in the New International Version (NIV):

The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.

To the same passage in the King James Bible:

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The first translation suggests ‘heaven’, or access to it, is in or through Jesus, whilst in the second translation it is in the individual. The relevant word in Greek is ἐντός, normally translated as ‘within’. The choice of ‘in our midst’ seems to be a theological choice to boost the divine saviour narrative rather than an attempt to be semantically faithful to the Greek original.

The first translation harmonises with the idea of humanity being tainted and not being able to reach God without Jesus as ‘middle man’, or alternatively, perhaps, the Church and its clergy as an earthly stand-in for Jesus whilst the second translation casts Jesus as more of a wisdom teacher alerting people to the potential within themselves.

In both translations there are then some words prophesying a coming apocalypse and the return of Jesus, which admittedly fits better with the 'in your midst' translation.

However the translation ‘within’ is worth considering. It suggests heaven is in the here and now and inwardly accessible to individuals without input from Jesus. It casts Jesus in a less elevated role and is reminiscent of a passage in the gnostic non-canonical gospel of Thomas.

If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.

This passage is more in keeping with the Eastern idea of the ‘heaven-stuff’ permeating the whole of creation.

headinhands · 13/05/2018 10:49

The Old Testament clearly states the God stands opposed to human sacrifice

Why did he order Abraham to sacrifice Issac? To order people to do something you're opposed to to find out how obedient is terrorism. And the actions of someone with incredibly serious issues.

speakout · 13/05/2018 12:09

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

Clear here.

Also this god type person thinks nothing of mass genocide.
Sounds a sweet character.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 13/05/2018 15:07

So god isn't into human sacrifice because Jesus ..... wasn't merely human.
Doesn't that undermine the whole point of the new testament, what did god actually sacrifice then? Did he just ask his son to hide in a cave for a few days?

Vitalogy · 13/05/2018 16:00

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus as more of a wisdom teacher alerting people to the potential within themselves.

Exactly OutwiththeOutCrowd

Can I just add Psalm 82:6
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."