Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

Heaven/ hell

267 replies

Cheekyandfreaky · 05/05/2018 23:36

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

OP posts:
headinhands · 20/05/2018 11:04

out of interest, what do you think was the catalyst for you losing faith - was it a sudden realisation or a gradual withdrawing process? Did those around you at the time attempt to help, and what sort of things did they do/say?

It was a gradual process. I remember certain points like the Boxing Day tsunami and trying to square it with a loving god. And for some reason I wasn't satisfied with my apologetics that had previously worked. I was also into cosmology and started to read Carl Sagan which opened me up to a universe that didn't need a god.

Talking to someone didn't seem an option as I knew anyone I spoke to would have their own agenda. It was an odd feeling knowing I had to work it out for me.

There were moments I felt almost scared. I remember the first few times I honestly contemplated the idea that there was no loving personal god at work. And it felt naughty in a way. But I knew I couldn't not think it just because it felt like I was being rude.

I settled on the idea that if there was a loving personal god he would appreciate my need for intellectual rigour.

I went through a long time of facepalming as I unearthed assumptions I had long held that had no basis. It felt like the cartoon where someone's running off a cliff and that moment they realise they're in mid air.

So now I like to talk to others to better understand my journey and how I believed it.

headinhands · 20/05/2018 11:08

vitology. Do you believe in a personal god as distinct from yourself or more an inanimate force like love? I was querying the existence of a personal god and how it would not reveals its true self even though it could see I really wanted to know it and allowed me to carry on in error. Which would be why I lost the faith I did have as it wasn't real.

Vitalogy · 20/05/2018 11:50

Do you believe in a personal god as distinct from yourself No.

headinhands · 20/05/2018 11:59

no

Ah right. So in that case god wouldn't be interested in if I knew it so my point about god letting me go on in ignorance doesn't matter.

wendiwoowho · 20/05/2018 12:18

I was querying the existence of a personal god and how it would not reveals its true self even though it could see I really wanted to know it and allowed me to carry on in error.

If it was that simple do you not think God would do this for all of humanity?
God always holds the freewill he created for us to have, giving us the freedom to believe Him or not. He doesn't force us to know Him, instead allows us to decide if we want to allow Him to enter our lives or not.

speakout · 20/05/2018 12:20

I don't care for this man called god.

I am however a goddess.

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 12:23

instead allows us to decide if we want to allow Him to enter our lives or not.

So if we decide we want to allow him in, how do we know it's happened, does a bell ring or something?

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 12:24

I never doubted it Speakout Grin

speakout · 20/05/2018 12:30

So if we decide we want to allow him in, how do we know it's happened, does a bell ring or something?

It's far more sinister.
I have lost two close family members this way.
They were "born again".
It was like watching someone being taken over by aliens.
Very scary to watch.

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 12:41

Quite like slavery in lots of ways, being made to follow arbitrary rules, fear of punishment, life being controlled by 'those who know best', it always amazes me how close to mental illness religion can become. Very sad for you to watch the delusion take hold, I feel for you.

speakout · 20/05/2018 12:52

Yes, like slavery, no coincidence that there is such analogy made of christians and sheep..
Or children- being born again, returning to that cosy infantile state where individuals don't have to think for themselves, giving up control.
And that's exactly where the church wants them- neatly giving the control over to the church.

speakout · 20/05/2018 12:55

My sister is a fundamentalist Baptist.
Her church tells her it is wrong to question- it shows a lack of faith.
If doubts bubble up in your mind that is a sign that Satan is trying to infiltrate- praying for redemption is the cure.

Madhairday · 20/05/2018 13:08

It's really nothing like that for me, Jason, though I recognise that religion has been a controlling, oppressive force for many throughout history, sadly. I don't recognise your description of faith being about arbitrary rules and fear of punishment. For me it's a sense of being set free rather than bound up and controlled. I'm not a person who'd appreciate being controlled, or one to follow rules which make no sense to me. My experience is that faith draws me to an indescribable joy and a peace which transcends circumstances.

Put it down to delusion if you will - I do get that.

Hih, that's interesting. It must have felt a lonely time for you, struggling with that on your own. I too have grappled with these questions again and again, and there are times I struggle to reconcile the God I know with the shit that happens - my faith doesn't blind me to the questions. I've gone into all of them and walked right off that cliff, but somehow discovered God there anyway, a God who gets it because he suffered and was human.

Vitalogy · 20/05/2018 13:09

Ah right. So in that case god wouldn't be interested in if I knew it so my point about god letting me go on in ignorance doesn't matter. Does it matter to you I think is the point.

Madhairday · 20/05/2018 13:10

I do worry about your sister's church, speakout. My experience is the opposite - great encouragement to robustly question and study these things. I want no part of a faith which closes its eyes and stops its ears.

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 13:16

But is she happy? I suppose your unhappiness isn't helped by not being able to understand how anyone could survive such a regime, but this doesn't take into account how your sister feels. If she's happy with her lot, then it's her choice to believe as she does. As long as there are no children being indoctrinated - that is pure evil - all you can do is hope that the delusion subsides. I realise that the more she is 'loved' and is 'part of the community' she will either not want to change or be terrified of doing so. It's a little bit like coping with dementia in general - quite often the sufferers are not aware of their illness, however loved ones and carers see it all too clearly and it's heartbreaking.

speakout · 20/05/2018 13:19

But ultimately faith is about closing down questions and blind acceptance.

Otherwise it wouldn't be about faith.
If we approached religion from an intellectual perspective - one of questioning-rather than a faith based one then we would all be atheists.

Religion is about told to shut up and sit down.

wendiwoowho · 20/05/2018 13:24

I agree with Madhairday, this isn't religion for me either.
I too don't relate to your sisters experiences, speakout.

Religion is about told to shut up and sit down.

It's really not. It's completely normal to question it. Religion is about making up your own mind, it's about deciding for yourself, how can you do that without questioning?

speakout · 20/05/2018 13:29

Jason118 yes there are children involved. And now grandchildren, all going to the same Baptist school too. Kids have friends or contact outside the Baptist community, no TV, no radio.

Is she happy? As well as anyone can be perhaps, except she lives her life in constant fear of Satan- as do the kids- he is always on her shoulder looking for a "chink" a small way to get inside. So a simple thing like buying a magazine is off limits if it has a weekly horoscope page.

speakout · 20/05/2018 13:30

No friends outside Baptist community. typo

headinhands · 20/05/2018 13:41

allows us to decide if we want to allow Him to enter our lives or not

What about the disciples and people who witnessed his miracles. Had he not over ridden their freewill?

Someone earlier claimed I couldn't have been a Christian or I would still be one. In which case I have to assume god chose not to reveal the truth to me, even though I spent years praying, going to church etc.

speakout · 20/05/2018 13:41

wendiwoowho but faith is not about rational thought. Otherwise it would not be faith.
If you genuinely wanted to know "truths" and wanted answers to your questions instead of navel gazing into your own religion- you would not believe in god.

For instance why ebola? Why herpes? Why earthquakes?

wendiwoowho · 20/05/2018 14:07

Faith doesn't take away your rational thought though.
You might think this is the case for your poor sister, but you said yourself she's a fundamentalist.

Jason118 · 20/05/2018 14:22

Faith doesn't take away your rational thought though
Of course it does. Belief without proof is not rational - how can it be, based on what?

speakout · 20/05/2018 14:25

Faith doesn't take away your rational thought though.

No it doesn't take away your rational thought- but you choose not to apply it to your belief.