To ask you to sign this petition about women's prisons

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

You may remember recently the case of Karen White, who is physically a man but self id'ed as a women. White was sent to prison after carrying out a vicious attack and was subsequently housed in the female estate. Within days White raped 2 women and thank god, is now housed in the male estate.

However, there are simply no guarantees that this situation would not happen occur. If self id became the law over here, women in prison,l who are often vulnerable & as a group are statistically to be more likely to have experienced sexual assault will be most at risk. In Ireland where self id is already law transwomen are housed in the male estate. Over here, where self id isn't even law, we have gone one huge step further than Ireland by allowing fully in tact males into the female estate.

In prison showers and getting dressed is open and shared. Personally I could not imagine personally having to shower naked in front of a male bodied stranger. It's bad enough in front of women. I think it says a lot about a society that carefully considers the privacy, dignity and safety of it's most vulnerable members. As I understand it, there are currently male bodied prisoners in every female estate.

If you feel, as I do that prison rules should reviewed, please take a look at and sign this
petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

What matters is whether the boundaries are reasonable.

I completely disagree when it comes to nudity.

However, sex segregation as a boundary has been deemed 'reasonable' to date. And every aid agency and refugee charity is busy trying to enforce it elsewhere, deeming it vital to women's safety.

If you have to compare it to excluding blue-eyed people, it suggests to me that you can find no effective comparison.

And deciding on a 'case by case' basis is still using men and their feelings as the benchmark.

It's depressing how many people default to sexism.

No I don't think that allowing men to self identify into a woman's prison , and thus force women to share spaces where they're naked and vulnerable with males and not allowing them to escape from the situation is ok actually. They don't get to say they're not ok with this. It's fucking barbaric. Case by case my arse. When do the women get to object? What if they don't consent to being used as validation cannon fodder for a gender non conforming male? Nobody knows or cares because nobody is listening to them.

My boundaries are fine thanks. You need to take a closer look at your own and why you're so keen to ignore how the women might feel in favour of how the males feel.

I'd say a woman having a boundary of "i don't want to be naked while locked in an enclosed space with an adult human male " is absolutely not an unreasonable boundary to have. If you do think that's an unreasonable boundary then i haven't got anything further to say to you.

If you have to compare it to excluding blue-eyed people, it suggests to me that you can find no effective comparison.

Actually it's because you people get very touchy if the comparison is racism and I haven't got time for that.

However, sex segregation as a boundary has been deemed 'reasonable' to date.

Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims deemed it 'reasonable' enforce sex segregation because men (and The Lord) shouldn't have to be exposed to menstruating people, and often still do.
Let's move with the times.

And every aid agency and refugee charity is busy trying to enforce it elsewhere, deeming it vital to women's safety.

Yes, in places where rape has not only been endemic but an actual policy of war. I'm not counting the Cotton Ceiling as such because nobody I know has ever experienced that IRL.

Were, are you actually suggesting that sexual violence against women and girls is no endemic in the U.K.? Are you that naive?

Sex segregation for reasons of privacy, safety and dignity is not discriminatory. If gender non conforming men are not safe in men’s spaces, why is that women’s problem to solve? We have these spaces to keep safe from male violence, and to allow women to participate fully in public life.

Actually it's because you people get very touchy if the comparison is racism and I haven't got time for that.

Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims deemed it 'reasonable' enforce sex segregation because men (and The Lord) shouldn't have to be exposed to menstruating people, and often still do.
Let's move with the times.

^^ That's all you have to do. Let transactivists speak.

All the comparisons with racism and religious segregation of menstruating women are a load of old bollocks, to put it bluntly. Women are actually in danger from males who are locked in prison with them, as evidenced by Karen White. And this is not even the first time this has happened!
Why the fuck would anyone think this situation was reasonable, unless they just didn’t give a shit about women being sexually assaulted 😡

Were, are you actually suggesting that sexual violence against women and girls is no endemic in the U.K.? Are you that naive?

No, you're strawmanning me. I'm merely suggesting it's not a genocidal war zone.

And have you bothered to check what the female prison population actually wants? Because I promise you I'm not any sort of "activist", and I'm seeing a load of middle class white women activists, accustomed by feminism to feeling righteous, who think our experience makes us human rights experts and are using victimhood as a silencer. And given that countless other female victims of sexism and violence vocally disagree with you I don't think it's the mic drop you think it is.

''White'' - check.
''Middle class'' - check.
''Did you bother to ask them what they want'' - bingo!

Did you or anyone speak to the female prison population before deciding sex segregation should no longer exist. The ones making changes maybe need to do the asking.

And have you bothered to check what the female prison population actually wants?

I've asked them what they want, and guess what? They don't want to share their space with men, which is hardly surprising being as most of them have been pimped out by men, abused by men, or raped by men.

X ray vision and clairvoyancy.

Makes a change from you're all meanies, I guess.

Were fox did you think it is a petition to allow contributors to a Mumsnet thread to change prison regulations?
Do you think only white, middle class feminists value privacy, dignity and safety?

If you disagree with Were fox and believe that women of all ages, cultural & economic backgrounds value sex segregated spaces in prison AND if you would like to help push back against an unusually cruel system which institutionally degrades women, please sign the petition:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

My friend was a prison visitor/support worker for foreign nationals, and yes, women prisoners, like refugees, have often experienced both routine and horrific violence among a multitude of other injustices.

But I got the impression that very few of them think that the transgender movement is "the biggest threat to women and girls' rights in 100 years", or find it helpful that some self-identified feminists devote such a large proportion of their time to opposing it, and nor, I dare say, do they care to be used as emotive props for your argument and pretty much ignored the rest of the time.

I think, in short, that you're exploiting them in the service of your obsession.

So are we basing this decision on the one person you know who works in a prison, what about the many people who work in prisons who have already expressed their conerns.

I think, in short, that you're exploiting them in the service of your obsession.

Dear lord. Your argument is now that feminists not wanting to have men incarcerated in women's prisons is about exploiting the women. Seriously?

You don't like women very much.

Were on a thread about a petition that ultimately seeks to keep men out of the female prison, it is pretty relevant to discuss this single aspect of prison life.

If you think this rules out the capacity to be concerned & take action about other issues effecting women in prison, then that speaks more about your own limitations than anyone else's.

So are we basing this decision on the one person you know who works in a prison, what about the many people who work in prisons who have already expressed their conerns.

YY. For instance the actual poster who has worked extensively with prisoners. Which Were has totally ignored in the service of their apparent obsession.

And if I remember correctly people very senior in the prison service expressed serious concerns. As far as I am aware those people were nothing to do with MN and therefore didn't share our 'obsession'. I am sure Rowan would have the links

I genuinely don't understand how the idea of keeping male (or male-bodied/born-a-boy) prisoners out of women's prisons is something anyone could argue against .

Oops, that was meant to be anyone

Were on a thread about a petition that ultimately seeks to keep men out of the female prison, it is pretty relevant to discuss this single aspect of prison life.

I'm not actually disputing what the subject of this thread is, kendoddsdadsdogsdead18.

If you think this rules out the capacity to be concerned & take action about other issues effecting women in prison, then that speaks more about your own limitations than anyone else's.

Page 1 of the FWR board currently comprises 80% threads complaining about the trans movement and zero threads about women's prisons in any context. So if you are being concerned & taking action about other issues affecting women in prison, either you don't feel the need to introduce it into that powerhouse of feminism, or very very few of the other people powering FWR are particularly exercised about it. I don't know any feminist outside of your bubble that doesn't find the "feminist" designation of the FWR board absurd due to these discrepancies.

And yes, you think it equally absurd and horrifying that I could possibly disagree with you, I know, I know. And no, I haven't started any threads on the subject myself either, because that wouldn't go any way to answering the question of why you haven't done it if you're so passionately concerned about all of women's rights and not just the bit that requires you to exclude trans women.

And no, I haven't started any threads on the subject myself either, because that wouldn't go any way to answering the question of why you haven't done it if you're so passionately concerned about all of women's rights and not just the bit that requires you to exclude trans women.

Because of the upcoming law change and review of the GRA.

Now.

Happening NOW.

And no, I haven't started any threads on the subject myself either

Best get to it then! You know, if you care and don't just want to take cheap pot shots at MN feminists.

As someone that regularly uses hospitals including psychiatric units I only wish the petition was to keep them single sex as well.

Don't wait for me to speak up on this. Amplify my voice; no one listens to us so it takes a multitude.