To ask you to sign this petition about women's prisons

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

You may remember recently the case of Karen White, who is physically a man but self id'ed as a women. White was sent to prison after carrying out a vicious attack and was subsequently housed in the female estate. Within days White raped 2 women and thank god, is now housed in the male estate.

However, there are simply no guarantees that this situation would not happen occur. If self id became the law over here, women in prison,l who are often vulnerable & as a group are statistically to be more likely to have experienced sexual assault will be most at risk. In Ireland where self id is already law transwomen are housed in the male estate. Over here, where self id isn't even law, we have gone one huge step further than Ireland by allowing fully in tact males into the female estate.

In prison showers and getting dressed is open and shared. Personally I could not imagine personally having to shower naked in front of a male bodied stranger. It's bad enough in front of women. I think it says a lot about a society that carefully considers the privacy, dignity and safety of it's most vulnerable members. As I understand it, there are currently male bodied prisoners in every female estate.

If you feel, as I do that prison rules should reviewed, please take a look at and sign this
petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

What are you talking about Rat? There was uproar about those suicides. It was all over the press & now it is being taken advantage of by nefarious individuals like Karen White. That's exactly what has lead to this shit scenario where in tact male sex offenders can say they feel suicidal. Instead of putting them on suicide watch or a suitable location they are shipped to the female estate.

Transwomen need support in prison if, like anyone else they are suffering with mental health conditions. That support should not be at the cost of the physical and mental health of vulnerable women in the female estate. Only a mysoginist would argue for that.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

Holistically it happened, it was amazing.

Do you know what "holistically" means? Genuine question.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

Thank you to everyone who has signed. It is so reassuring to see so much support for our vulnerable sisters. Women in prison do not have a voice, we need to be that voice.

I have seen the signatures increase since posting in here. It's greatly appreciated. ❤️

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

What really doesn't matter in all of this is whether rat thinks 'holistically' has been used correctly. What does matter is the safety, dignity and privacy of women.

[Datun]

Transwomen should have a sepearate wing in a male prison, not be with women in a woman's prison.

There you go. Job done.

The purpose of women, incarcerated or not, is not to validate men.

[Herja]

Quite Datun. I find it staggering that anyone would disagree with that tbh.

[Datun]

Herja

It really got to me yesterday when someone slipped that men identifying as women, have a right to be a rape counsellor.

That a rape survivors purpose is to accommodate the rights of a man.

[Herja]

A fucking right?! No. No one has a right to be a rape counsellor, but if they are one It's to help the victims at that awful time. Not to make themselves feel validated. That's disgusting. I'm sick of this shit.

[Datun]

It's so backwards, to me.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

There you go. Job done.

Is it? What about all those nefarious types you would have me believe will call themselves trans women in order to abuse others? Put them in with the "genuine" trans women (who you apparently all defend) and let them abuse them freely in their own private jail? As long as "real" women aren't vulnerable, job done?? Conservative tribalism at it's worst.

What does matter is the safety, dignity and privacy of women.

What really matter is the safety, dignity and privacy of everyone.

I don't subscribe to this notion of our splitting up into factions and protecting only our own. Not between religions, not between races, and not between the sexes. And not between gender identities.

Human rights are for everyone, and they are the pillar on which women's rights are based. Without a strong belief in the pursuit of right for all, feminism is a nonsense. I'm not into tribalism, I'm into humanity - all humanity - I'm up for defending human rights, not splitting into warring factions in the name of feminism.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

Oh, and for reference: "Holistically is defined as dealing with, or treating something, as a whole system and not as individual parts."

[Datun]

What about all those nefarious types you would have me believe will call themselves trans women in order to abuse others? Put them in with the "genuine" trans women (who you apparently all defend) and let them abuse them freely in their own private jail?

I completely agree. Male violence is scandalous, particularly in prisons. Hence vulnerable prisoner units.

If you don't think they work, take up with the prison service.

Meanwhile, feminism doesn't centre men.

[Herja]

Do you believe that nefarious men will claim transgender to get in to women's prisons Rat

[Lichtie]

Not minimising it, but did he really rape 2 people whilst in prison as stated in OP? Wasn't the case from what I read?

But point is still valid so have signed.

[WitchyMcWitchface]

Have signed.

[Herja]

Women's spaces are segregated to protect them because we can't tell which men will attack, so we segregate all of them out.

We can't tell which (if any) transgender people will attack either, but we don't segregate so transwomen aren't upset? Bullshit. Women who are incarcerted still deserve the right to be protected from attack by men. Transwomen are a subset of men. Not women.

To protect WOMEN I'll campaign for complete sex segregation. If transwomen are housed in a seperate wing of a male prison, I'd be happy to campaign for men pretending to be trans to be excluded from those wings to protect TRANSWOMEN. Though I must admit I'm not sure how that would work, as the screening procedure I'm assured by my MP is 'rigorous' doesn't seem to work so well right now.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

Litchie Karen White was accused of 4 sexual assaults (Within days of being housed on the female estate) and admitted to 2. Already had a history of sexual offences and was on remand for a stabbing.

[Hidingtonothing]

Signed and about to share on FB.

[Datun]

I don't think he raped them. As far as I know he sexually assaulted four women, not two. He was only convicted of two, with the other two charges laying on file.

He had already told the authorities that he would sexually assault children, because he could. And, as far as I know, he had form for assaulting vulnerable women in places like mental health wards. He was a self-confessed and convicted rapist. And a convicted paedophile.

He couldn't have been more upfront about who and what he is.

People talk about what went wrong, how could the process have been so open to error, etc.

What went wrong was enough people didn't give a shiny shit about women.

There must have been a significant number of people prepared to disregard not just red flags, but huge, giant, neon lit, klaxon blaring, industrial flags. Because women don't count.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

Do you believe that nefarious men will claim transgender to get in to women's prisons Rat

I have a friend who is a doctor of psychology in a sex offender's prison. I asked her about this. She told me that many of the inmates are deeply damaged individuals with histories of terrible childhood abuse, and sickening criminal records. She said it is very common for some to be gender confused, or to be extremely criminally devious. She said that they are experts in such things, as much as anybody can be, and that when a request is made to transition and to move prisons they evaluate those on a case by case basis, utilising all their expertise to assess both the best interests of that individual and any risk they may pose to the wider prison population.

They didn't get it right with Karen White (nothing to do with my friend, incidentally). They need to do better than that, that really does appear to be a travesty. But that does not mean that does not mean that an appointed board to assess these requests (as is currently the case) is not the right solution. It's just not a solution that worked in this instance. We need to see how it can be improved.

In short, the answer to your question is yes, I believe some prisoners will think there is an easy option in moving to a women's prison if they say they are trans. Not as many as we would be led to believe by some on here, but I do believe it happens.

Do I believe the only fair and reasonable way to protect against that is to have a panel of experts to whom we entrust this very significant responsibility? Yes. Yes I do.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

He couldn't have been more upfront about who and what he is.

Well exactly. This is why the case board should have done better.

What went wrong was enough people didn't give a shiny shit about women.

No, what went wrong was the case board didn't give enough of a shit about women. And that's not good enough.

But it's not good enough to take a knee-jerk stand to this emotive and unacceptable outcome and place vulnerable trans women in harms way in some sort of "eye for an eye" act of retribution. One extreme does not merit the other extreme in order to balance the scales.

[Lichtie]

Yeh kendod.. I'd read that. But they weren't rape, like I said not minimising, but kissing someone on the neck is not comparable to rape. Its a bit misleading to imply that he raped 2 people in prison.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

Rat do you believe women should be forced to shower in front of biologically in tact males?

[Herja]

So to clarify Rat, you're firm in your belief that appropriate case board review would prevent false 'transwomen' gaining access?

In that case, as women are sex segregated from biological men to keep them from harm, there's no issue with biologically male Transwomen being housed in their own separate male prison wing? As the impostors would be reviewed out anyway, wouldn't they?


Women are not there to validate men. Vulnerable women should not be forced to share space with biological males.

[RatUnholyRolyPoly]

Rat do you believe women should be forced to shower in front of biologically in tact males?

Do you think they should be forced to shower in front of biologically intact females? Even if they don't want to? Even if they have traumatic experiences that would make this very difficult for them?

Because they don't let women in prison lay down those sorts of boundaries. Do you think a woman is allowed to say, "my boundary is nudity around women; I don't want to do it, and you have no right to force me! I do not consent!!". Do you think she should be allowed to do that, in a prison setting for example?

Actually, I think I kind of do think women should be able to have those sorts of boundaries. I think everybody should. They don't currently (as far as I'm aware), but I do rather think we shouldn't have to be naked around anyone we don't want to be, although I haven't talked through the wider implications of this.

Do I think women should have to shower with men? I don't think women should have to shower with anyone against their wishes. Do I think they should be able to say "I don't want to shower with a penis" and NOT be able to say "I don't want to shower with a vagina"? No.