To ask you to sign this petition about women's prisons

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

You may remember recently the case of Karen White, who is physically a man but self id'ed as a women. White was sent to prison after carrying out a vicious attack and was subsequently housed in the female estate. Within days White raped 2 women and thank god, is now housed in the male estate.

However, there are simply no guarantees that this situation would not happen occur. If self id became the law over here, women in prison,l who are often vulnerable & as a group are statistically to be more likely to have experienced sexual assault will be most at risk. In Ireland where self id is already law transwomen are housed in the male estate. Over here, where self id isn't even law, we have gone one huge step further than Ireland by allowing fully in tact males into the female estate.

In prison showers and getting dressed is open and shared. Personally I could not imagine personally having to shower naked in front of a male bodied stranger. It's bad enough in front of women. I think it says a lot about a society that carefully considers the privacy, dignity and safety of it's most vulnerable members. As I understand it, there are currently male bodied prisoners in every female estate.

If you feel, as I do that prison rules should reviewed, please take a look at and sign this
petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Argh, this is the problem, everybody's polarising!

It's knee-jerk, it's reactionary, and when pushed to the extremes someone always loses.

I'm literally arguing FOR moderation.

I'm arguing FOR the middle ground.

I'm arguing AGAINST black and white thinking, extreme positions at either pole, and any sort of sheister-like tricks to lure people closer and closer to extreme positions.

Is that really not obvious??

I URGE moderation, I literally just want to remind people to check their own positions, see how far they've shifted from their own moderate beginnings, and see whether or not they're comfortable with where they've ended up. Or where they're going to if they follow the path of sweets into the deep dark woods...

There will always be extremists. I don't mind that fact, I can live with it. But what I won't stand by and watch are otherwise moderate individuals being lured to a place where perspective is out of the window and human decency is a vanishing dot on the horizon.

You're on a thread about a petition calling for a review of safe practice in women's prisons so that they don't get assaulted, and you're calling those who think this is vital the same as Britain First.

Your plea for 'moderation' and 'middle ground' is fascinating in this context.

It can be hard to find threads once they've been moved to the petitions topic so I'm really pleased to see this one getting regular bumps to keep it in active threads

We're nearly half way to 10,000 - the number we need for a government response.

Keep signing and sharing!

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Rat- can you point out what exactly you consider 'extreme' or lacking moderation in the petition?

'Fair Play For Women is calling for MPs to ensure the relevant prison rules are urgently reviewed, in full consultation with women's organisations. Prison guidance PSI-17/2016 allows male prisoners who identity as female to be moved to a female prison at the discretion of a Transgender Case Board.

No women's organisations were consulted when the prison rules were updated in 2016. The effect on female prisoners has not been adequately assessed. Current rules are not fit for purpose and must be urgently reviewed.'

Personally, I think human decency is ensuring that women's prisons are places where women can be sure they won't end up sharing a room with a rapist.

A review is urgently needed - this should never happen.

Errol I don't think the petition is extreme, quite the opposite! I think it's moderacy is deliberate and disingenuous, as I've said throughout this thread.

In my very first post I said that asking simply for "review" was something almost anyone could agree with, but that this is patently not what the group behind the position actually want.

If this were an honest and upfront organisation, wouldn't you expect them to be petitioning for the outcome they actually want, not some vague "review", the result of which could be anything from complete trans exclusion to check-free placements in women's prisons? Don't you think that's odd? Don't you think the only reason the petition is so restrained is to harness the "Britain First" effect of soliciting likes and shares for a vague and reasonable-sounding proposal when the ultimate agenda is more extreme?

And if that's not the case, why wouldn't FPFW petition for the actual outcome they want for prisons, not simply request a review? Wouldn't that be the honest thing to do, actually tell people what they want to happen and let people decide if they actually agree with that? If you have a scroll through active petitions at present you'll see that's the usual way people go about these things.

Speaking of active petitions, I'm not in the least bit worried about bumping this thread - I'll give you all the help I can! I just looked at one started at roughly the same time asking for the banning of the sale of fireworks to the general public; 35k signatures. Doubt my comments here will raise the profile of this so much to as to bag the extra 95k signatures. Were I that influential I would use my power more carefully!

Well to be honest it's easy to share the fireworks petition quite openly. I can't even fucking share a petition about keeping males out of women's prisons on my Facebook or twitter without feeling I could be at risk of some insane TRA putting my family at the risk.

I also think your extensive knowledge of Britain First is quite revealing. You sound intimately informed.

Isn't it weird that rat's first thought is to assume FPFW Have nefarious intentions behind the wording of their petition just because Britain first also use moderate language?

Lots and lots of groups use moderate language in petitions and campaigns. Does that mean they all have nefarious intent too? Because they all share
Using moderate language in common? You've just said yourself you don't actually know what FPFW intentions are. You've already decided they are bad bad people. Don't worry about opening up your ears and mind and actually listening to what they've got to say.

And if that's not the case, why wouldn't FPFW petition for the actual outcome they want for prisons, not simply request a review?

Recognising that all views should be heard is suspect now, is it?

I also think your extensive knowledge of Britain First is quite revealing. You sound intimately informed.

Hahahahahaha, you've really tickled me Everything I know about Britain First I know from simply being on Facebook. Literally everyone who pays attention to this sort of thing knows it; I mean I didn't even have to read the BBC news article linked below, or the phrase quoted, but I knew hundreds of articles like it would exist (Google will prove it) because, well, it's common knowledge!

But thanks for the laugh. "Woman goes through life with eyes open; sound the alarm, women can't know shit! "

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/blogs-trending-42170543

So what explains Britain First's outsized social media following?

For one thing, it uses paid advertising and a core group of dedicated followers to spread its message.

Britain First has also used less controversial posts - for instance messages encouraging people to support the armed forces or the royal family - and other tactics to drive up the numbers of likes.

Recognising that all views should be heard is suspect now, is it?

Um, no, but disguising your own views is, sort of, a little bit. Don't you think?

But if you're telling me this petition is asking for a review that will call on both organisations such as FPFW and proponents of trans safety and wellbeing in prisons, well, in very surprised it doesn't say that in the text. Reckon you might get a few more signatures.

Wow! I'm on Facebook but never followed Britain First. It's not something I feel the need to be informed on. I know what they are about but I don't validate them with a follow. Very strange rat.

I don't follow them either ThisTime, where on earth did you get that idea?

You might feel the need to be informed on them if your grandfather was a Polish immigrant to this country, and many of your cousins, their wives and their children the same.

Petitions have a space limit and concise requests are more likely to be popular and be heard (though many may just read the title - that has caught people out a few times before). So sure, it might be careful plotted out for nefarious means - not really how I see it as they're not really hiding their motives there even if they aren't spelling it all out but I guess it is a tiny possibility - they still get no bonuses in the review if the petition goes through so I don't get focusing on them when there would still be benefits to a review.

I mean, I live where there are still UKIP councillors. I disagree with them in pretty much every way & find them quite extreme but still work with them on cleaning up the parks or dealing with traffic problems or other issues because it still benefits the community and doesn't benefit anyone to stand against or question it just because it's a UKIPper putting it forward or heading it.

A review would likely mean FPFW and many other groups would try to get what they want out there - including groups who push for separate spaces trans women and trans men to maximize safety and care of trans prisoners which has been something people have wanted and been fighting to happen for a while but ignored due to the logistics/expense/being harder than the current lazy situation but the current situation is rather badly thought out and causing problems. If FPFW isn't your speed and this is important to you, join a different group, join a group that wants to improve conditions for prisoners and push for a review. All these absolute screw ups by these policies and review boards aren't helping, they're getting women hurt & something needs to be done.

And yeah, there are tons of groups that mock BF on facebook so it's easy to know what they're up to without actually following them - still think it's a bit of stretch to compare this concise petition with BF tactics. This doesn't really get FPFW anything personally and if they were using BF tactics, their name would be in the title and every sentence.

In case anyone is under the impression that FairPlay for Women have outrageous or unfair goals, here is their report supportong women in domestic and sexual violence services.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

Their conclusion on the issue of prisons is:

"There is evidence that the offending profile of male-born transgender prisoners represents a serious risk to the safety, privacy, and dignity of women in prison. The future size of the transgender-identifying male population housed in women’s prisons is likely to rise significantly if gender recognition reforms become law. This must be considered in the future planning of the prison service."

fairplayforwomen.com/3781-2/

The screenshot is their campaign aims.

Britain First ffs.

Homosexuals shouldn't be gaybashed, but nor do we want the Daily Mail to start expressing moral outrage at homophobia if and only if an immigrant does it. It's a fruit of the poison tree thing. We know FPFW's agenda.

(And my agenda is TRA/handmaiden blah, yes, yes...)

Signed.

Good chance to make sure this thread remains in active.

A review of current policy seems very sensible, given that current policy allowed rapist Karen White to be placed in a women's prison where White committed sexual offences against women including exposing White's penis to them.

A review is clearly needed to tighten up the rules to ensure that female inmates are not exposed to this sort of abuse of their human rights ever again.

But if you're telling me this petition is asking for a review that will call on both organisations such as FPFW and proponents of trans safety and wellbeing in prisons, well, in very surprised it doesn't say that in the text. Reckon you might get a few more signatures.

That's literally what's implied, isn't it? Not sure many more signatures would be forthcoming. Why would they?

This board is being suffocated by people who use others' suffering as a human shield for their beliefs. From Rat using holocaust victims on this thread to Jane equating gender dysphoria with uterine cancer, there is no depths to which these people won't sink to prop up their narrative.

It's absolutely revolting

On that basis I find it absolutely disgusting and dishonest to compare women defending the rights of vulnerable women to Nazis.

Oh but rat is only trying to make sure people remain moderate and not go too far to one side or the other. I'm not sure how rat thinks comparing ordinary women to Nazis and Britain first is being moderate and not going too far but I'm absolutely sure she will have an excellent explanation. Positive.

@FermatsTheorem Did I read you say somewhere that you're an expert on Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem ?