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Original poster

to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

725 replies

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 21/03/2018 18:24

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

OP posts:
NoSquirrels · 22/03/2018 12:24

@g1itterati

Why do you think the current system should change to self-ID?

g1itterati · 22/03/2018 12:26

How do you know I have never been assaulted? I have and it makes me wary of ANYONE. I don't feel more likely to be assaulted or made to feel uncomfortable because simply men can identify as women. I don't make that link.

Osopolar · 22/03/2018 12:29

I haven't said you haven't been assaulted just that that is one possible reason why a lot of women aren't comfortable with penises in women only spaces.

g1itterati · 22/03/2018 12:31

Some men may identify as female to get into women's spaces, but the point is, those men were a danger in the first place.

Those same men, denied the prospect of self-identification, would simply use one if the millions of other methods to abuse women.

Self-identification in itself will not foster an abusive mentality.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:31

And what do you think would happen if you did complain about the man who was behaving badly? Do you think he would admit to it? Or do you think It's far more likely he would deny doing anything wrong and perhaps even make a counter claim of transphobia?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:33

So what you're ssying is that women are going to get assaulted anyway so we might as well just STFU and get it over and done with. Lovely.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:34

*saying

Terftastic · 22/03/2018 12:34

Some men may identify as female to get into women's spaces, but the point is, those men were a danger in the first place.

Those same men, denied the prospect of self-identification, would simply use one if the millions of other methods to abuse women.

I can't believe I'm reading this.

Some men will abuse women whatever we do, so let's just open the door to them? Why have any protections at all then? Let's do away with DBA checks for teacher as well...

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 22/03/2018 12:36

Should we all leave our front doors and windows wide open, glitterati, as people burgle houses anyway?

GColdtimer · 22/03/2018 12:36

glitterati, the point wasn't so much a "what if", rather "if a man self ID as a woman to gain access to gain access to woman's spaces there would be nothing you could do about it".

There are plenty of women who do not want to have self ID men in their spaces. Are you saying they are wrong to feel that way, that they should just be more like you?

As other posters have asked, why do you think the system should change to self ID.

sashh · 22/03/2018 12:37

I totally fail to see how trans women going about their lives like women is so fucking dangerous. And even if it was a bit dangerous, I'll take that in exchange for people's freedom to be themselves.

How is discussion doing that?

As for 'dangerous', well to be honest I think Ian Huntley is dangerous, and just because he is calling himself a woman now does not take away from the fact he murdered two little girls.

The debate is about 'self id'.

How often can someone self ID as anything? Do they have to tell their wife/husbad/partner if they self ID?

We KNOW there are men who will use any means to access women and children. There are cases of men grooming women for years until they have a child for the man to abuse. We know there are men who will target women on dating sites because they have children.

We know there are men who are violent and that the violence is mostly aimed at women and children. How do we record this with self ID?

What about medical treatment of someone who self IDs.

Having a debate is not anti trans.

simplysleepy · 22/03/2018 12:37

Because the whole debate is blatantly transphobic. No matter how much you want to frame it as an important issue to discuss, its marginalising a minority group and quite frankly some of the language used on mn in regards to transgender people is depolorable.
I am so glad I am able to surround myself with people who aren’t bigoted in RL, both trans and cisgendered.

GColdtimer · 22/03/2018 12:38

What is the point of having any laws, people will just break them anyway.

g1itterati · 22/03/2018 12:39

No Im not saying that at all. I'm just saying that if a man wants to abuse a woman he will do just that. Self-identification will have no impact in this sense. In some cases, self-identification may even identify predatory men because men, dressed as men, in women's spaces will appear out of place and will always draw suspicion, regardless of what the law states.

GColdtimer · 22/03/2018 12:40

simply, please could you tell me exactly how this is transphobic. All I seem to hear is shouts of "transphobia" and TERF without any reasoning about why it is transphobic.

How about the trans people who have signed this petition, who are concerned about self ID. Are they transphobic? Or do they actually know what this could mean?

SuitedandBooted · 22/03/2018 12:42

g1ittarati

"I would articulate what that was and complain, if possible"

Why are you still saying this, it's like Ground Hog Day.

Once again;

He would have a legal right to be in there if he Self ID'd as a women. SO IT WON'T MATTER if he makes you feel "uncomfortable".

What you think your complaint would achieve, as neither he nor the shop/facilities owner would be breaking the law?

AccidentalKylie · 22/03/2018 12:42

Some people are uncomfortable around people with disabilities. Some people are uncomfortable around black and brown people. Some people are uncomfortable around any number of minorities. Should they be excluded from spaces and services, too?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:44

These people don't actually care about trans people @twofalls or the damage this whole thing is causing them. That's why they always ignore the trans posters here. They just want to pretend to be all hip and right on with no consideration for how this is hurting the people they claim to be defending.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:48

Well yes, black men and disabled men should be excluded from female spaces, @AccidentalKylie.

g1itterati · 22/03/2018 12:50

It is transphobic because there is an inherent assumption that the main reason a man would self-identify as a woman would be to gain access to women's spaces for abusive purposes.

The fact is, most rapists manage to get away with it by appearing as "the norm" - by not drawing attention to themselves or speculation as to their behaviour. Not "Hi I'm Olivia, yesterday I was Oliver, but I'd like to join this women-only space". Why would potential abusers risk arousing suspicion?

Osopolar · 22/03/2018 12:50

Accidental over 80% of violent crime isn't committed by disabled people or black people it is committed by men. That is why women need protection from men in certain situations.

Terftastic · 22/03/2018 12:51

Some people actually are so afraid of seeming 'bigoted' that they will happily wave away women's sex-based protections in law.

Women's spaces designated by their biological sex have been long fought for - for good reason. It is not remotely the same as not wanting to share space with disabled people, or black people.

We are talking about women's space - and services set up for women - those spaces are for all women of the female sex - be they black, disabled, lesbian - because we share the same biology.

AccidentalKylie · 22/03/2018 12:51

Trans people who would pull the ladder up behind them so that other trans people - who might not be able to medically transition, or might not be able to afford gender recognition certificate - ARE transphobic, yes.

Internalised transphobia.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/03/2018 12:52

This is not about trans women. Trans women have been sharing female spaces with us for years without issue.

This is about men. It is not bigoted for a woman to not want to get changed in front of men.

Google Danielle Muscato and then explain why you think a woman is bigoted if she doesn't want to share intimate female spaces with 'her.

GColdtimer · 22/03/2018 12:52

Can I ask again. Why have transpeople questioned self ID and have signed the petition if the whole thing is transphobic.

Why can nobody answer that question.

This is an interesting article from a transwoman here