Bitterly disappointed

[paparazzied]

Our son is 23. Over 4 years he hasn't looked for work, he's worked about 4 months total over those years and was let go of both those jobs. When he would come to us for money, we would give him work to do in his craft, he could add these commissions to his profile, so it would benefit him. We didn't need it done, it was just a way for him to earn money and build his portfolio simultaneously while getting paid what he would make doing a job at a retail store. He resents that we don't just give him money, and calls us transactional. I received an email from his girlfriends mom admonishing me for not paying him industry standard and that a kid needs to eat. I assured her I could see his bank account and he was eating ubereats so he wasn't going hungry and that the work wasn't really even for us, and we simply pay him what he would make in retail, giving him the option to avoid working a "normal" job and allowing him to do what he loves. A few months later he asked for money again. We reminded him he never did the last project for us. He told us he never intended to do the job because we weren't paying him "industry standard". We noted he was not doing well in school, not working, not doing his channel and we weren't going to give him any more money because he makes no effort to help himself 3 years was enough time to have gotten this sorted. This went down like a lead balloon. Nevertheless, from our perspective, once he made the effort to support himself, we'd happily kick in whatever extra he needs for bills if he isn't spending it all irresponsibly.

18 months go by and he gets no job, doesn't build content for his channel and leaves school. He has not asked us for money. We are going insane. We can't understand why someone his age isn't eager to work. Especially given the golden goose of a channel he has on youtube.

Two weeks ago we find out that my son's girlfriend's parents have taken out a loan of several thousand pounds to pay for one of his expenses. They have also been paying his rent for over a year now as well as covering food costs etc. This is in addition to their daughters rent and costs (they share student housing, they each have their own bedroom in a 4 bedroom share). We are flipping out. First, the expense wasn't time critical. It is something we would have helped him negotiate terms for that would have been doable for him without anyone taking out a high interest loan. Second, who does this? Who are these people to come into our lives and undermine a very simple life lesson we are desperate for him to learn? Nobody will pay your way, you have to support yourself (or at least try!!!!). Now his experience is that people will, indeed, pay your way! I mean, I have never in my life met anyone who would do this. Why are they not bothered that at 23yo he's not making an effort for himself? Is it a matter of seeking to make him reliant on them so they can keep the kids close? They have been dating for 3 years. To make it worse, her parents can't afford it. I'm embarrassed that my son would take from her family before going out and doing work for himself. He knows that making that effort would be enough to rely on us to pitch in to help make ends meet for him. I feel like I'm in crazytown. In the email she sent me years ago about industry standard rates, she said she would do anything to make her kids life easier. I responded saying that I would offer my son opportunities, but he had to make the effort to take those opportunities. Sure, we could support him for the rest of his life, but surely that's not normal right?

After all this venting, in the end I realize there is nothing I can do. He has chosen to remove us from the financial aspect of his life, so we are respecting that decision and don't bring it up. We are trying to build an adult relationship in the space we're all comfortable in and we have plenty else to talk about and build on, but it breaks my heart that he's not eager to make a life for himself and that he's willing to have other people work hard to take care of him when he is capable of doing this for himself.

Anyone else bitterly disappointed in the decisions their adult children are making?

But he's the one asking for the money!
Of course they can put conditions on their money!
He can either abode by them or support himself.

The problem is he wants to take and take and take on his terms.
Which is BS.

You come across very very controlling & absolutely you are playing power games.

The way the U.K. system for funding uni is set up is that how much the government will lend you depends on your parents income.

So they will lend everyone money to pay the tuition fees and that goes straight to the uni, the student never sees it.

After that, they look at parental income. If parental income is below 25k the government will lend you 4k per year. It's then on a sliding scale until with a parental income of above 42k the government won't lend you any money for your living expenses.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/student-finance-how-youre-assessed-and-paid/student-finance-how-youre-assessed-and-paid-2022-to-2023

Rents on most student halls alone are more than 4k a year. So students who qualify for the full living expenses loan usually work as well.

However, the situation is much worse if your parents earn over 42k. Your tuition is paid for. But you need to pay all rent and living expenses. If your parents don't contribute at all then you need to earn all of that money AND study for your course. Student halls run between 4k and 10k (can be up to 25k per year at some fancy ones in London). Then food and bills.

You're basically studying part time around a full time job, which inevitably impacts on how you do in your degree.

Most parents who can afford to, want their child to focus on doing well in their degree not on earning money in relatively low paid jobs. Because the time spent on the degree pays off later.

@Octavia64 yes which is fair enough, the op stated in their original post that they helped out in the beginning, but now the son isn't even in Uni anymore and still expects help ? He's literally doing nothing and expects money from people to pay for his life style ? And the original post isn't about money the parents had to offer, it's about how their disappointed in their son at the age of 23 basically going nowhere in life ?
They just want him to achieve something, even if it is a low paying job. Any job or doing something with your life is better than playing video games all day surely ?

I haven't named it because I want him to remain anonymous. It is niche enough that you could find it. My son puts out incredibly talented work when he is inspired to do so, his channel is popular and putting a little more effort in he could make a living easily. He is often working on projects. He has a very busy mind, but can get mired in his thoughts and has trouble getting unstuck. We play video games in a family account, and those accounts are linked so just by logging in I can see what he's playing and how many hours he's played. Scotland was one conversation over a few months. He chose England, end of. We are staying here for now. His debt certainly does make a difference to us, because I love him and I want to keep him from that burden. We would have preferred he not go to Uni because he already had a skillset he could use. As a matter of fact, at every juncture of this journey, rather than being controlling, we have followed his lead and supported him, we have given him options that most parents wouldn't have the ability to offer. I'm sorry it bothers you that we reached a limit where we felt offering to bail him out was causing him more harm than good. I stand by that decision. I'm also glad her parents recognize how talented he is, but talent is useless without application, and he simply must do more for himself to have a fulfilling life.

@Momof2dd You’ve clearly worked very hard, I’m not denying that.

Living at home in the country that you (presumably) grew up in is a type of support though and I’m incredulous that his parents required him to move countries before they’d support him in any way. I’ve never heard of anything like that, have you?

I agree that he should be working now, but the relationship with his parents sounds majorly messed up, tbh.

@BruFord that's his problem though? Not theirs. The relationship isn't good because they wouldn't give their 23 year son money for Uber eats ?

It’s all the U.K. Many parents tell their kids that they can help fund a northern or midlands uni but that southern rents are so high they will have to get a job.

Don't worry, we have a great relationship. It's a non issue between us, for 18 months now. We still spend time together and talk nearly daily.

For reference, its not the only country we've lived in and all our family live in different countries so its not that big of a deal to move internationally.

Same here, but I still find it incredible that you wouldn’t give him ANY support unless he went to college in Scotland. Most parents contribute something towards their 18-21-years-olds at uni unless they genuinely can’t afford a penny.

Anyway, he definitely needs to get a job now and repay his gf’s parents, plus interest. I doubt he’ll listen to you though as you washed your hands of him financially at 18. 🤷

I'm not sure why the OP is being given such a hard time. Lots of parents don't give their children money for uni. I had a friend whose parents were loaded. Didn't give him a penny - so he worked part time.

Paying rent for your dd's adult boyfriend is bizarre and really unelpful in this situation. Ds has 2 options now he's left uni - go home or get a job.

Well yes. I went to uni at 18 and didn’t get a penny from my parents.

which was fine, as I knew I wasn’t getting anything.

if they had said we’ll contribute as long as you go to x uni and do y and z, that’s different.

asking a 17 year old to be responsible for a family decision to move to Scotland and making his funding conditional upon that decision? Fucked up if you ask me.

one of mine has a scholarship to a US uni. The other is hoping to do an apprenticeship. Neither wanted uni debt.

i thought most Americans started college funds as soon as the kids were born any way.

@MyNameIsFine I suppose my perspective is that as their parents’ income significantly affects a student’s finance options, I.e., they can’t always take out the maximum loan, many (most?) parents do help out. The OP didn’t want her DS to take out any student loans anyway.

My DD isn’t eligible for certain loans due to our income so yes, we do feel it’s on us to help her out, because she literally can’t borrow the money. She does also work as much as she feasibly can though and is doing a STEM degree that will give her good career options.

This man sounds like he’s in a mess due to poor decision-making and needs some advice/support to work out his next steps.

My understanding was that the OP and DS came up with a plan to finance uni and the DS didn't do ANY of it - including not handing in assignments. If he was still at uni I would advise focus on that, but it seems that ship has sailed.

Even if the OP has been unfair, It's none of the gf parents' business. Imagine phoning people up and berating them for not giving their ds money! They were completely out of order.

Your disappointment is completely valid!
I was at Uni 10 years ago and had no financial input from parents, as I recall most of my friends didn’t either and we all worked around studying. That was the norm for people my age, once you turn 18 you should no longer be financially dependent on parents (unless there are any additional needs etc).

As for his girlfriend’s mother taking out a loan to fund him, that is absolutely absurd!

He needs a kick up the bum to get some motivation to earn a living whether that be through YouTube or a retail/hospitality job.
It isn’t your responsibility to pay him a wage unless he is physically working for you.

Of course if willing, let him know he can always come home.

OP, I know you haven't asked but I think you've done nothing wrong and I think you sound like you have been fair, sensible and loving.
I would have done the same.

Some Mumsnetters love to put a twist on an OPs posts when it just seems to me that they lack the reading skills to understand the OPs posts. The OPs posts have been clear and easy to understand.

The faux confusion about the OP using school instead of Uni is so silly. It was obvious what she meant.

As for your actual question I think it's not unreasonable or unusual to feel disappointed when a child (adult child) fails to thrive.

I think it's quite a common situation.
Do you know if your son takes drugs (weed or whatever)
I'd be really disappointed in him accepting a loan from his girlfriend's parents.
I wouldn't bail him out.

If he ends up moving back home then I'd expect him to pay rent.

Through friends and through my kids friends I have known boys (and girls) his age who have been similar to your son but have got their act together.

My kids are in their late 20's and early 30's and have had a lot of financial help. If they were layabouts then it would have influenced what we did. My DH and I worked hard for our money and whilst I'm delighted that we've been able to help our kids it's not controlling or unreasonable to not want them to squander it.

I don't see a problem with what OP has done. Work hard and we will help. Do sweet FA and you're on you're own. I come from a fairly wealthy family and this was always the thing. We were always provided a roof over our head and food in the fridge but if we chose not to go to uni or school we could live at the house and eat what was in the fridge and anything to do with family (meals out holidays etc) was covered, but our own extras had to be covered by ourselves. As a result, when I left school, I got a job straight away and have always managed to look after myself. My family then topped me up as I needed - because I was working and pulling my weight.

I think it's crazy that someone else would interfere financially like this. OPs son isn't homeless - he is being lazy. That said, maybe he has underlying MH issues that he needs help with.

This post is very upsetting. To see a young man possibly overwhelmed with Uni and his parents choose to deprive him of the basic funding. My dad did similar to my brother. I still hate him for it 40 years later even after death. It may not be said by your son but he knows what you’ve done. It is him that will be disappointed. Frankly I think you should repay the GF parents.

It’s very entitled to think that your parents owe you uni funding. So many parents simply cannot afford it. I’m of an age where there were no tuition fees. Parents simply weren’t required to fork out huge sums for tertiary education in those days. I had a friend who had to do one year at a time, take a year out to earn money to pay for the next year. I understand why many people - students and parents alike are wary of starting life with a massive debt and thus consider the cheapest uni options and consider other avenues.

I’m of an age where there were no tuition fees. Parents simply weren’t required to fork out huge sums for tertiary education in those days.
Actually they were. In the 60s and 70s the grant took account of parental income just as it does now but unlike now the parents were properly notified of the amount they were expected to contribute.
If parents were on low income the student got more grant and the parents were expected to pay less or nothing. It's the same now although of course it's a loan.

No they weren’t required to fork out huge sums. Many parents now want to save their kids the burden of student debt so they build up a uni fund to cover the as much of the fees as possible; equally rents have sky-rocketed compared to 30 years ago and parents try to help with that too if they can. The amount parents had to contribute in respect of the grant was small fry by comparison. But even then some parents said they couldn’t afford it.

Exactly, @MirabaiBack in the 1990’s, my parents topped up my grant and I was expected to work during the holidays. Students whose parents could afford to help them took out small loans- one of my friends had a £4,000 total loan.

Nowadays, going to uni is far more expensive. The OP didn’t wish to help her son financially, also didn’t want him to take out student loans -so he would presumably need to work a lot to cover his expenses.

He hadn’t done that, which is a problem, but tbh I think that their expectations were possibly too high, he was/is clearly immature and
I can’t understand their antipathy towards any student loans at all, so many people need them even when they also work.

I think that his parents made a somewhat rigid plan for uni that stated failing almost immediately. He’s been turning to his gf’s parents as substitutes for his own, which is concerning. They clearly see the situation v. differently to the OP. 🤷

I've no bloody idea. It's pretty obvious that you would have to be a resident for some time otherwise lots of people would just rent a place for a few months.

hahahahhahahahahaahha. Yeah. No.
How old should he be when we stop? He's not a child.

As far as paying them back, no. No way. It was dumb for them to take it out in fhe first place. If he doesn't have a job after 4 years of being prompted and seeing the numbers on the budget sheets that show he needs to work, what makes them think he's going to get a job now and pay them back the loan payment every month?

His problem is one that we can't solve for him. Its one that he is avoiding solving for himself, and the help we gave him was being used as a way to delay the inevitable.
Perhaps your own personal experience is colouring your view of the situation. Believe me, we HATE not helping him. I mean, how many parents make pretend jobs in their kids area of expertise so that they can earn money for themselves? He wouldn't even do that. So what are we supposed to do?