Gave biting boy marmite "medicine"

[Flamesparrow]

I'm not going to traumatise him for life am I?

He hated it before, just seemed a good way to make him connect that doing bad stuff with his mouth makes bad things happen to his mouth.

Many tears and apologies!

not sure whether I agree with the marmite or not. I don't think I'd do it, though I certainly had a tantrumming kicking biter on my hands (dd was still having hysterical violent tantrums aged 9 and she was tall for her age)

but otoh I'm not sure I quite understand this quote from onebatmother either: "It so fundamentally denies the child's rights over his body, since it is consists of something being forced inside him against his will."

Does that mean you would never force medicine into them either if they really needed it either? Not force them to have a wound cleared up?

I'm afraid I have forced my children a fair bit when it has been really necessary. Control over your own body imo needs to be relative until you are old enough to control it sensibly.

and btw Flame, I find the way to restrain a fighting child without getting kicked is to hold their wrists firmly but gently from behind and put one leg across their two legs- by gently using the wrists to move their face you avoid getting bitten and your leg stops them from kicking. Sitting down is best and you can use your other leg for keeping your balance as they thrash about. the voice of experience

As usual on threads like this I am amazed that the children of people in favour of smacking are always running out into he road, touching flames and putting things into electric sockets. It's the same examples EVERY TIME!

medicine or cleaning a wound is totally, totally different, the child is hurt and needs to be given it. this is forcing a substance into a child's mouth as a punishment, to create a disgusting and upsetting sensation.

And actually, I wouldn't force my child to take medicine unless it was really vital. I have seen people forcing calpol into a struggling child - my view is that a child well enough to fight that hard can't need calpol that much.

And any wound that was so serious that it needed cleaning right that minute and couldn't wait for bath time, or a calm moment in front of the TV, or even once they've gone to sleep should surely be at A and E?

seeker, maybe the same examples come up every time becuase, quite simply, they are the very same reasons every time!

oh, and as for forcing cleaning of wounds......of course you have to there and then occasionally, to see if you need to go to A&E. I feel sure that if you turned up at A&E with a screaming tanturming toddler with just a graze, they would also forcably clean said wound, and then laugh at the mother for bothering with A&E to just clean up.

sometimes children don;t know what is for their own good, which is where us parents step in to take over.

and also, some children don;t understand the word NO! for misbehaviour, and so us parents need to step in to try other methods.

Really sorry Flame but I think it's nasty. I think biting back is nasty and I think forcing an unpleasant substance into someone's mouth is nasty as well.

Personally I'd rather be punched than have someone force marmite into my mouth.

...and try to remember that all children bite, and they all stop pretty fast too. Not worth getting into a state about to make you do something like this imo.

oh no, not all children bite, and not all children stop pretty fast.

and please pray, tell us what she is supposedto do when all other methods fail, and her DD is being bitten several times daily, drawing blood, and she see's flame doing nothing to protect her.

oh, and another case in point.....

someone earlier in the thread suggested flame make a fuss of the bitten victim while ignoring the dude......

how is she supposed to do that when FLAME isthe victim?? rock in a corner hugging herself and fussing.......

psychomum, are you saying that physical punishments should always be used with any behaviour, if 'other methods fail?' what if they don't work either, do you just make them more and more severe until they work? if a smear of marmite doesn't work, do you move onto a tablespoon, and if that doesn't work, do you force a bar of soap into the kid's mouth. this doesn't make sense to me.

So, if it's running in the road, putting things in sockets and naked flames, then hold their hands, use socket covers and make sure they are never left alone with a naked flame. Problem solved, no need for anyone to smack a child again. Hand me the next problem.

Well, I don't think it was abusive BUT I thinkn there must be better ways to deal with this

I often find myself dealing badly with his behaviour BUT I know it doesn't work, he just gets more stressed and angry. However, he has a regular childminder he's been going to since he was 6 mo (he still goes 1 day a week tho I'm on ML as he loves it) and I know she doesn't shout or use physical punishment on her mindees, she'd be in serious trouble if she did. And DS1 behaves beautifully for her. She uses time out and being endlessly patient and firm.

I thin it can be helpful to think 'how would I deal with this if I were a professional' - it does often work

I also see v good examples at the playgroups we go to, usually run by young women who know exactly how to get the best out of toddlers. Of course, it's easier for them cos they don't have to deal with things 24/7 (esp at 5am when your defences are low)

His granny is also a very good eg, she HATES it when he tantrums (which is pretty frequent atm) but rarely has a problem, lots of focused attention (I appreciate not easy to do when you have more than 1 kid) and slightly puzzled ignoring of bad behaviour 'what on earth are you doing THAT for?' then no reaction at all. Again, it works.

have any parents here had something forced into their mouths as children?

I had fairly liquid in my mouth aged 5ish for swearing. I was physically held down by both parents and lived to tell the tale. I don't even really remember it so it can't have been that traumatic.

Well I have said this before and I'm going to say it again.
DS2 and Flameboy would get on like a house on fire.

I've never met Flame, but I've read enough of her posts (often about the things her DS has got up to) and I know she sometimes struggles with him. If this is her way of dealing with a biting child who will not listen then so be it. I wouldn't have tried it, but then , DS2 wasn't a biter, and I don't know what I would have done if he was.

i think iits fab idea and if it works then well done you!

What would people think if a teacher at school did this to their child?

Exactly. So why is it OK for a parent to do it?

Jesus, flame, you are being melodramatic now. You must know - God knows I've said it enough times - I'm not saying you're evil.
I just don't think that you and the others in favour are right about this.

Should I pretend I do, to spare your feelings? That is a genuine question, and I'd be really interested to hear your response.

I'm sorry if, underneath, you feel that you were wrong, and this keeps rumbling on; but it's hard to second-guess whether or not that is the case. (And also sorry if I"m patronizing you by suggesting that you might be reconsidering.)

Cory - I understand your point, and in the situation you describe, as with flame's, it's a question of the lesser of two evils. Child biting another child (which can - be honest - be prevented. It's a fucking nightmare to do so, but it can technically be done) is not a big enough evil, I don't think. Child in danger of becoming seriously ill due to lack of medicine - yes, of course I would force them to take it.

Seeker's point is worth thinking about though; where one knows that with a bit of Calpol child will feel (and behave) better, but it means pinning them down and forcing them to gag on it for their own good - that's murkier; and although I have done it, it was awful and I v much regret it. It certainly did break a trust which hasn't been mended. I tend now to leave it a bit longer, try again, bigger and better bribes etc, and it seems to work eventually.

SEA - I'm interested in why you think it's wrong to make judgments. When someone asks you a question do you always respond 'erm, not sure really'? Because it seems to me that's what we'll end up with if we follow the line that all those who are complaining about others 'judging'.

BTW I have been in flame's shoes. Though I don't think that's as relevant as many of you seems to. I have, in many other respects and many times, been a shit parent - but again, I don't think that disqualifies me fromhaving an opinion on this.

I'm going to leave it now because I'm just being repetitive, and flame inevitably will feel that this is a crusade against her personally. Which it really isn't.

If more people come on complaining about people judging others, I will try to stfu - but I do think it's an important point that we should consider. It's such a specious criticism: when you do it, it's called 'doing the right thing', but when the other guy does it, it's 'judging'. It's meaningless really, other than as the verbal equivalent of putting one's fingers in one's ears and going la-la-la to the actual issues.

agree that we need to discuss these things rather than huffing about being judgemental - I'm just learning as a parent and can do with all the POVs and advice I can get!

Is it judgmental to say "I don't think this is the right thing to do"?

For example, I am not going to say that I don't agree with smacking, but that it's up to other people whether or not they smack their children. Because I think it isn't OK. I think it is always wrong. I'm not saying that parents who smack are bad parents. I'm saying that in this particular way they are wrong. And I'm not going to do or say anything that might add to a person's conviction that they are right.

Onebat - the comment to you was tongue in cheek, but said because it just feels that every time there is any support (from different people), you always step up to remind them that It Is Wrong.

At the moment my view on it is still pretty much as 50/50 as when it first happened.

It hasn't happened since so I have no idea how I will react next time, at the moment I am concentrating on DD being bullied (fixing it, not bullying her!), her best friend moving away, trying to feed the children a decent diet instead of the crap they have had lately, trying to keep myself upright through each day, juggling money, running a business, dealing with a useless paed who wants to keep seeing me to tell me DD has no issues ().... Oddly enough, events of several days ago have pretty much been filed into the brain drawer of "dealt with", tis just the thread that is ongoing.

Ok, flame, this really is the last one: if you look back, many if not most of my posts have been about the 'judginess' thing, rather than reminding people that It Is Wrong.

I think you're wrong to take the criticism personally. You posted on here and asked for opinions. I actually got the impression that you felt unsure about doing this.
I think it's wrong and I have a spirited three year old whose older sister bears the brunt of it- she is cleverer with words and teasing, he responds physically. I am in the process of praising them for playing well together and to rewarding them for being kind to each other. I try to talk through what happened and get to the bottom of it, reiterating time and time again what I find acceptable and otherwise.
I don't always get it right and am certainly not being judgemental but I just don't believe that forcing marmite on him is the right thing to do.
They need to understand why they shouldn't do things rather than just be scared to do them.
I' sorry if that makes you feel bad Flame, you do sound like a nice person but I do disagree with this.

And I do think that one bat was responding to criticism and cries of judgypants from what I read
**my opinion, not putting words in onebat's mouth