Gave biting boy marmite "medicine"

[Flamesparrow]

I'm not going to traumatise him for life am I?

He hated it before, just seemed a good way to make him connect that doing bad stuff with his mouth makes bad things happen to his mouth.

Many tears and apologies!

I don't like the idea, but only because it involves the parent hurting/upsetting the child wilfully: it is a consequence, but not a logical one. I go for instant removal and attempt to deal with causes - but then I don't have two to deal with.

Wow! What a thread...
well,.. as a punishment I don't like it, I think it's on a par with smacking but I have not been in this position.
I had a biter, but he wasn't that spirited and I could control it with removal etc.
If he had been?.. maybe I would have got to this point as well.
Flame, you have very loyal friends. I'm quite envious.
In fact Psychomum will you be my friend please?

Really psychomum, I think it's you who have lost perspective.

Feral children do not come from wishy-washy liberal families - they come from detached, abusive ones.

And it does not follow - as we all bloody know - that because a parent knows her own child, she always does the right thing. I know my own dd, and I am Absolutely Positive that I have done the wrong thing on many occasions. NO-ONE is accusing flame of being a bad parent. Some of us are saying that in this instance she made the wrong decision.

That is okay, you know? Both for her (because we have all done it) and for us (because it is okay to express disagreement with anyone, even your friend).

I am still reeling with just how much this has imploded.

I can't be arsed to go over the same right/wrong grounds now, I am too bloody tired, but I did want to say to Fairmidden - thank you for pointing out about DD's trust. She has a lot of issues as it is both with asperger's type things and currently her "friends" at school being horrible to her. Where DS has always demanded my attention so much, she has quietly let him (was always happier to come to me when she needed me rather than just for the sake of it iyswim), but this feeling that he can do anything he likes to her and her mum isn't protecting her IS making things worse for her already low self esteem.

ingles, yes

lljkk, just to comment on this point - "
For tens of thousands of years the main parenting tool was smacking. You could even argue that we as a species adjusted to this being the norm, that it was built into our psychology to cope with it from a young age. But at least the little blighters could run outside and play all day without our supervision, giving both parents and child a break from each other."

we as a society are not the only society to chastise our young by smacking, even the animal kingdom chastise their young by batting them away from danger/naughtiness etc. and it is proven to work.

in fact, smacking in and of itself is not a form of abuse, it is (and can be) a useful learning tool for children and a short-sharp way for us parents to get our point across. I did it with my children as toddlers, as toddlers are the one personality that canot be reasoned with. I used it when they went to touch hot flames (in the kitchen if they got over the gate, which they did), or when they went to stick something into a socket, or even when they went to run into the road on the days I forgot my reins. (oh, forgot, reins are also frowned upon by some here!)

it worked, and by and large they are all good respectful children who can function in society as they have been taught how to, and cocntinue to be taught.

and none of them are traumatised.

I, on the other hand, do have traumas from childhood, due to an abusive upbringing. I know abuse, marmite is not one of them!!!!!!!!!

Flame, don't be
We can't all agree and what works for one, doesn't nescessarily work for another.
I completely understand what and why you used marmite (this has turned a little into marmite-gate) as I have done a similar thing.

FWIW I think that by addressing the biting you have done a very good thing for your DS and your DD.

Psycho, I agree with what you're saying but I think your logic is slightly flawed. Saying 'I know abuse and this is not it' suggests that your upbringing makes you more qualified to judge what is allowable and what is not, and I don't think that's correct. In some cases an abusive upbringing might lead someone to draw the line far too high, as what they are doing is nowhere near as bad as what was done to them. I'm not saying this is the case for you, just that experience of abuse doesn't make you better qualified to decide what is and what is not abuse.

In any case, I'd say the line between acceptable punishment and abuse lies somewhere higher up than marmite on the tongue.

By the way, people who do like marmite, do you like it enough that you wouldn't mind a fingerful on your tongue, or do you only like it 'diluted' with butter and toast? Would this work as a deterrent even for a child who liked marmite normally?

I love marmite, always have. But it's not about that, it was about deliberately inserting something horrible (which marmite is, on its own) into a child's mouth. It is wrong. I can't get around that, that is how I feel. It wouldn't matter what it was, even jelly and ice cream, if it is done in that way. It reminds me of Matilda by Roald Dahl where the headmistress makes a greedy little boy eat a massive chocolate cake until he is sick, as a punishment.

That was different imo gemzooks. That was a freaky film - I thought my dc would be terrified but they love it, strange little beings that they are.

Oh it was only a smear - you know the flat bit on the end of a medicine spoon (where some have the 2.5ml bit usually) - it was a little bit off there.

On this judging question-

Are we never to disagree for fear of being accused of judgery? I am judging, yes - I'm using my mind and my beliefs to make an assessment of where I stand on this issue. But this does NOT mean that I am 'gawping', nor - once again - does it mean I am calling into question the entire range of flame's parenting abilities.

Flame, I'm sorry that you are reeling over this, but tbh I think that both you and Psychomum are being more than a little naive. It must have occurred to you that there are plenty on here and in RL who would not find this (or other forms of physical punishment) acceptable? I don't think it is a radical, or even uncommon, position on child-rearing.

Perhaps this is a matter of perception, but the tone of many of the first posts seemed oddly triumphant. You also did not mention the very difficult situation with your dd until very late in the thread. Had either of these issues been played differently, I think the negative responses to your OP would have been expressed less firmly.

On the key issue: you asked a question - will I scar him for life? I know that you intended it semi-comically and rhetorically, but in fact this question lies at the heart of all our parenting agonies, doesn't it?

Psychomum believes that her children have not been scarred by being smacked because it worked, to the extent that they didn't get burnt, shocked etc (and are lovely kids); an that she is well-placed to judge where damage begins, because of her own experiences.

I think I'd query whether one can know for certain that a child has not been traumatized until much later; we know for certain that children find it extremely difficult to express these concepts until much later, if ever. And, like an earlier poster, I'm not sure I agree that personal experience of damage qualifies one accurately to weigh the whole spectrum of possible harm. I would say that it qualifies one to know what hurt you, and empathetically to surmise that the same thing would hurt another human just as much. But I don't believe it qualifies one to say that an unrelated act will not cause damage.

That is my position, and it is opposed to Psychomum's - but I imagine that on the inside psychomum, you and I are struggling with the same feelings.

The fact is that all of us, all the time, are juggling the AWFUL truth that we will almost certainly inflict some damage on our children. Thinking parents - which we are - have to face that truth, and do it anyway. It is very hard, and inevitably, we will make mistakes.

Sometimes we respond in anger, because we are human. Sometimes (often?) it is a question of the lesser of two evils. Sometimes we choose parenting techniques based on our own experiences, fears, philosophies or political beliefs. None of us can ever truly know - for certain - what is right.

But all of this must be discussed. None of us are served well by an atmosphere in which exploring the possible negative effects of our parenting choices on our children has become taboo.

Feelings will get hurt, yes. And this marmite thing is - of course - not the end of the world. But I do believe that if you're one of those who doesn't think the marmite approach is the right one, you have an obligation to say so, because ultimately protecting the feelings of children is more important than protecting those of adults. I think this is as true in small matters as it is in big ones.

I'd be interested to hear what other people think about the general subject of how to deal with issues like this on MN.

Flame, forget it love! you tried something you thought might work at the time. Hopefully it has. Really, it's not like you've damaged him in anyway.

I have a biter/kicker/hair-puller/ear-piercing screamer/puller-down of curtains/etc. etc. DS, 4.5. Yes, I agree with everyone who says that they have to learn that their actions have consequences. I'd just rather draw their attention to the actual consequences (that HURT! Your brother's upset, we're not allowed to hit each other so we'll have to go home, now we have no curtains hanging up, etc) than create false ones to put myself in control. And yes, often it seems like he doesn't give two hoots that so-and-so's upset but all I can do is repeatedly point out to him what harm he's caused and be super vigilant and responsible so no other child (his little brother most of the time) comes to any harm at his hands.

My hope (and oh my god if I'm wrong I'm responsible for a psychopath of the future so a bit of a gamble, this one) is that in time, he'll learn that these reactions are pretty much universal, that there are universal rules of socially acceptable behaviour and even if he lacks genuine empathy, it's in his interest to bear him them mind and control his impulses. All I can try to do, meanwhile is guide him, teach him, say the same blardy thing over and over again and have faith that it's going in, in its slow steady way.

My reservations about any kind of punishment (physical or otherwise) is that I'd rather he develops his own internal policing system than one based on my power, iyswim. I also hope that in avoiding control-based parenting we'll have a more useful/open/trusting dialogue when he gets older and I'll no longer be in a position to say 'do as I say or you'll go to your room' or whatever.

I also have to say that I do agree with those that express some discomfort with the OPs actions, I think every child deserves physical integrity and that these sort of punishments do undermine that. BUT I'm soooo not in a position to judge because I know what desperation feels like and I know we're all doing what we feel is best and I know the wretchedness I feel when I've shouted and screamed and stomped and felt like the crappest mother in the world.

Most of all I know what it feels like to have a mini-thug in your life, who you also love to bits. Onwards and upwards, hope the biting phase passes soon!

Really well-said, onebatmother

I feel I have so much to learn and can do so much better if we can take risks on here.

Onebat- I think your post says it all.

Flame- please try and hold on to the fact that these phases are incredibly hard but don't last forever. I think when you're in the thick of it it can feel like this is it now but actually just like sleepless nights and other difficulties most children go through and come out the other side.

Flamesparrow I am sorry you have been given such a hard time. I think Soupy's posts are spot on.

I had a biting 3-year old as well fwiw, who once bit DS2 (not much more than a baby at teh time) so badly on his side that the teethmarks took weeks to heal.

Don't want to speak particularly in relation to Flame's own marmite punishment. But more generally, any kind of punishment involving putting a substance into the mouth seems particularly horrible to me because 'feeding' is such an intimate thing, so bound up with love, and at the same time so threatening. It's hard to say why it seems so threatening -- I think it might be because it overwhelms the child's autonomy. Food is the first area where a child learns his separateness from his parent, and force feeding tramples that.

I can't think why it is regarded as less horrible than smacking.

True that when you smack you model a behaviour that you don't want your child to adopt, but at least you don't confuse the child by turning a loving nurturing act (feeding, or giving medicine) into one of dominance. Isn't it a little dishonest to reject a straighforwardly domineering act (smacking) in favour of one that superficially resembles something nurturing?

Completely sympathise with the difficulties Flamesparrow faces. But like others I'm a bit shocked by some of the gleeful responses to the punishment. And even more shocked by the suggestion that it is inappropriate to criticise here.

Flamesparrow, it doesn't make good reading.

Hey darlin'.

How's the little dude today?

All I have to say re: this thread is: Sweet Jehova.... some people obviously live in cloud cuckoo land.

What you did would not constitute abuse in any court in the land, so sleep easy!

[Feeling like you got a raw deal here BTW, you posted for reassurance, not a bleeding slating!]

Once again, I think that many posters have reassured flame, connie.

On your other point, do we decide whether a child has been well-treated, or not, on the basis of whether that treatment is actually illegal? No, I don't think we do. At least I frickin' hope not.

And you're always here to reassure me that I am still evil.

Can I point out once and for all THIS HAS HAPPENED ONCE!!!!

flame, no one thinks you're evil. I don't know you at all, I'm just going on what you said happened and said I think it's not a good thing to do, it's not a judgement on you, it's just hearing about a certain thing and thinking yuk that's horrible. my little niece was a major biter and then stopped, I'll ask my SIL what methods they used in case it helps. I've behaved in a way to my DS (2.5) I feel terrible about when I've lost my temper, and I feel awful just thinking about it even though it's only been a few occasions, shouting, being verbally nasty, pushing him away, I've threatened to leave him and never come back etc and I have itched to smack him, but haven't (so far). and he is a very 'easy' child so I've no excuse to even get wound up. None of those things are abusive as a one off, none are illegal but they're just not nice.

flame don't worry, i tried mustard once.

has anyone come up with anything that's guaranteed to work on this thread? cause i remember being desperate and i would have cut off my own finger to stop it.

it's so easy for people to make judgements. especially if they've never been in that situation.