Sex Education in Primary Schools - I've been to the meetings and I still feel uncomfortable, is it just me?

[Rhubarb]

I sat through a meeting last night about the kind of sex education that will be provided to our children, starting from Reception up to Year 6.

I agreed with everything the guy from the Education Dept said, about openess and focusing more on relationships and emotions etc. Then they showed up clips of the video they'll be using to teach the kids. So far so good.

In the section aimed at 5-7 year olds it showed a cartoony illustration of a girl's bits and went through the names - this leads to the vagina, this is a clitoris. Then it said "the clitoris is a small bump at the front, it can sometimes get hard and this can feel nice" - we weren't shown but apparently the video says the same thing for the boys. An audible gasp and murmurs rose up from us, the parents.

For the age bracket 7-9 they add the words "if you touch it, it can feel nice".

Myself and some other parents felt uncomfortable with this and we had a discussion with him at the end. Everything he said seemed to make sense, about not making sex seem dirty, it's natural, it feels nice etc. Not being ashamed of their body parts, and focusing on the fact that girls can feel nice as well as boys.

So why do I still feel uncomfortable with this bit? I don't think I would have an issue with that aimed at older children, say in Year 6. But for this age, I have this niggly feeling that just isn't right.

So often as parents we can only rely on our instincts and we are told to follow them as much as possible. Yet when it comes to sex ed we are told that our instincts are just our hangups about sex and to ignore our feelings and trust what they are saying.

So I wondered what you lot had to say about it all?

I think tbh most 7-9 yo, particularly the boys, will have worked out for themselves that it feels nice, so probably just as well to mention in passing that this is normal. And since my youngest dd is a shocking masturbator, both my older ones have seen her at it, so not a subject we've been able to avoid.

As long as the school are not handing out step-by-step instruction sheets or actively encouraging children to have a try, I'd have no problem with the subject being discussed in neutral, factual terms. The more you can discuss these things in sensible terms the less likely they are to get all sniggery and embarrassed about it.

They didn't use the word "masturbation" for children as they said that was not what they were doing, that's putting a grown-up slant on it, which I agree with.

But what about those kids who don't fiddle? Those slow maturers?

As I said, I understood their reasons, but I still feel uncomfortable with them telling the very young children about that.

Same as frogs.

I was touching myself by the time I was 7 or 8

I was curious. It would have been reassuring to be told 'this is what it's called and it can feel nice if you touch it'. Because I felt mystified and guilty about the whole thing really.

I also don't think that discovering your own body including pleasurable feelings etc has anything to do with actually having sex or being interested in sex at that age.

I'm also thinking that I'll probably come across as a right prude on this thread!

But how can you follow your instincts and judgement on some issues of parenting and not on others?

I think that it sounds like a really sensible approach to helping young children understand about the parts of their bodies and their feelings etc. I would be happy for dd to hear this at school, although we've already talked about it at home because she asked me what her clitoris was(she's just 4).

BTW - I don't think you come across as a prude Rhuby.

I just think that we need to consider why we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, and think about whether it could have anything to do with our unwillingness to discuss bodies, sex, relationships and feelings openly from a young age so that there isn't any of the "oh god mum, you're so embarrasing" stuff if we try and talk about it later on.

I think you just have to think about it in less sexual terms - at that age it's not like they're thinking about sex or orgasm or anything, just that some things feel nice. In the same way that children lie there & tickle their own tummies.

You don't at all sound like a prude - it's more that we're not used to talking about these things as a nation in general, let alone with our children. That's what these lessons hope to achieve - more openness & less awkwardness.

Yes but there is a fine line isn't there?

Our society is very good at sexualising children. Inappropriate t-shirts for example, thongs for 7 year olds, padded bras, make-up kits for toddlers etc etc.

Also the newspaper headlines that scream SEX at you whenever you walk into a supermarket or newsagents. Or even the bloody BBC with a 7pm showing of 'Baby Cats in the Womb' including the male lions barbed penis tearing gashes in the female lions vagina.

So how do you deem what is appropriate and what is not?

I've told dd where babies come from and she knows what happens during intercourse. But both she and ds are a little like me at that age, very very innocent. I've never caught her touching herself and ds, at nearly 5yo never ever fiddles. So I'm worried that they might think "Oh, everyone else is doing that so I'll have a go".

My policy was always to answer whenever they ask, to be as approachable as possible. If they ask questions then they are ready to know. But they are not asking questions about that - so are we not pre-empting a bit here?

I went to a similar meeting at ds's school before the summer vacation. We saw exactly the same video as you Rhubarb. I have to say I had no problem whatsoever with it but an awful lot of mums did and they had exactly the same concerns as you. It was interesting to note that they were mostly mothers of daughters.

Anyway the video caused a furore and much disagreement. As a result the SRE programme which was due to start in the last week before the summer holiday appears to have been shelved. I find this very frustrating.

I started a thread on this last year and received a virtual lynching.

It is fairly obvious that lack of sex education doesn't equal teenage pregnancy. Social factors are responsible for our high teenage pregnancy rate.

But mostly I don't feel it's the school's business to interfere in that aspect of my children's life. I don't want any po-faced humourless public sector under-educated jumped-up meeting-loving parasites pressing their views on my children.

By that I don't mean the teachers, but the waste of money and space people who dare to take my taxes and produce these schemes.

I can understand your feelings fircone, however the video is not humourless and I was fine with teh rest of it.

Ideally children would be taught about this at home. The first people they would approach would be their parents. But this is far from an ideal world, many parents don't feel comfortable talking about sex at all. Some kids are abused and they have no idea, until sex ed, that this is wrong, because they do also highlight personal safety.

I don't want my dcs to have the sex ed I had - which was as a teenager, looking at biology books in the library and feeling absolutely mortified and terrified on discovering what intercourse actually meant. My mother never ever discussed it with us because she's a strict catholic who believes you shouldn't have sex before marriage and then she probably just lies there and thinks of England.

To be honest, I knew about clitoral stimulation long before I could give myself any 'pleasure' from it. As a child you know nothing about lubrication or delicacy with these things & ended up thinking that it was obviously very overrated anyway.

The knowledge didn't corrupt me - they're not being taught how to create nice feelings, just that they're possible.

& I do think that it's good for girls to know from a young age, without embarrassment, that they can have these 'nice feelings' too - it may give them enough self-belief to demand that sex, when they're ready, is enjoyable for them as well as for their partner. I had a 4 year relationship from the age of 15, most of which was a sexual relationship, in which I didn't orgasm once. Frankly, I feel that I was just as 'corrupted' by the act whether or not I'd had any fun. Girls deserve the chance to take responsibility for their own bodies & they can't do that in ignorance.

Perhaps all the "Five a Day" officers the government employed have been redeployed as "Sex officers". Hmmph. No, that would be too cost effective. No, a whole new raft of "sex video distribution officers" must be employed at £38,000 each, flexible working, 28 hours a week, full benefits.

Breathe.

I didn't say that lack of sexual education equalled teenage pregnancy. What I questioned was whether it was our unwillingness to discuss bodies, sex, relationships and feelings openly from a young age. Sex is only a small part of the whole thing!

Fair enough fircone, if you don't want the school to be involved in that part of your child's education, then speak to the school about withdrawing your child from that series of lessons.

I think most 7-9 year olds will have been 'fiddling' for some time. Why not let them know what they are fiddling with. Knowledge is power.

Fircone - the school nurse would be delivering some of the SRE in my son's school along with the teacher of course. I don't think anybody could object to that.

fircone, it explores children's feelings and emotions, their relationships with other people and how they are different and unique to everyone else.

Sex is a small part of it.

Can you not see that not every child will have parents who will discuss this with them? What would you propose instead btw?

I agree that teenage pregnancies is a social thing. Part of this whole sex obsessed society and magazines that ask young girls how many partners they've had, how to pull guys and after how many dates should they sleep with their boyfriends.

It's also boredom. What else do teens have to do? Many of them are lacking in any kind of love and/or respect at home so they go out to try and find it in a different way.

Sadly no amount of sex ed can make up for a crap home environment.

Accio - that's my point though. They lump all children together and they shouldn't. My dd is 8 and doesn't fiddle. My ds is nearly 5 and has never fiddled yet. They are late developers, as I was. I never started a period until I was 16 - now kids are told that periods usually happen between the ages of 11 and 13 - how is my dd to feel if she doesn't start until she is 16 either?

What protection is there, what support is there for the late developers?

I think you're being a little over-sensitive about the whole issue. It's understandable that you want to protect your children, but I think that you're looking too deeply into it. I was late to start my periods too - one of the last of my peers - but I never worried about it because I knew that it would happen eventually & that just because things usually happen a certain way doesn't mean that they will. Of course when my first period came I was very pleased with myself, but the novelty soon wore off

& I think the point is that we're trying to unpick the social stigma that comes with talking about sex & everything that that entails. If periods & wet dreams & sex & relationships, etc. can all be openly discussed from an early age, then that surely leaves scope for further discussion at a wider level? These lessons are meant to aid our children's confidence & knowledge, not destroy it.

I get what you are saying Springy and I have admitted that my feelings might be down to my own "issues", if you look down at how I was taught about sex you'll see what hurdles I've had to overcome.

But I fear that we may be being too open with them - if this is possible? Perhaps in our eagerness to bring down teenage pregnancies and to de-stigmatise sex, we are actually forcing this information onto our children before they are ready?

I know I seem like Devils Advocate here, but you have to look at the other side.

I think my dd is too young to be told that, she is nearly 9 and has never fiddled... luckily for me, we were on holiday when they had the puberty talk LOL and so I have a years reprieve.
FWIW I have told her about her bits to the degree that she wants to know....... she doesnt want to know anything about sex or discuss it.

That's my feeling QOD, not every child is in the same stage of development and not every child is emotionally ready to hear that kind of stuff.

But what choice are you left with? You either pull them out and therefore "single" them out, or you let them hear stuff that may potentially frighten them or confuse them.

How do you know that your dd's have never "fiddled"? Rather than having fiddled and just not told you/you been aware of it because they've picked up the vibe that Mum wouldn't want them to do it?

The problem is that some children will need to know- puberty can start so early these days- even at 8.
I am similar age to you Rhubs, and even at my primary school, one girl started periods at 9.
Imagine if her parents had been too ashamed or embarrased to discuss what was happening to her?